Primary training in a jet?

10 Answers

1. 
   

   
   

   Matthew Waugh on Oct 23, 2011

   You could obtain your Private Multi-Engine and your type rating in the plane as far as the regulations go.
   Good luck getting insurance. 🙂

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2. 
   

   
   

   Ryan on Oct 23, 2011

   I don’t believe it is possible, you cannot act as pic of an aircraft of that size without a type rating. Also, how would you solo a plane that requires a crew of 2.

   I’d say from a regulations perspective, type rated aircraft are out of reach for initial training, especially those that require a crew.

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3. 
   

   
   

   Wes Beard on Oct 23, 2011

   This is a rather interesting question Dave.  I haven’t really thought about it before.  One of the first things that I considered when thinking about this quesiton is the required 10 hours of solo time.  As we know, solo time is defined as being the sole occupant of the airplane.  See §61.87.  Most jets require two pilots to operate so they are out of the question in regard to obtaining your private license in them.
    
   There are single pilot jet aircraft that will do like the Cessna CitationJet (CE-525S).  The “S” at the end of the type rating indicates single pilot.  It is possible to only receive a CE-525 rating meaning the PIC must have a copilot to fly the jet.
    
   If you were to fly the CitiationJet you will need to comply with the approved flight manual or AFM.  I don’t fly the CitationJet but I do know that all turbine powered aircraft are required to stay 1500 ft AGL in the traffic pattern until it becomes necessary to land.  See § 91.129(e).  I can’t see a instructor perform ground reference maneuvers (600-1000 ft AGL) in a jet especially at the speeds required by the jet.
    
   If these were not an issue, the last thing I could think of would be finding an instructor with the appropriate type rating and a designated examiner approved for private pilot checkrides in that type aircraft.
    
    
   Personally, I think the MCL (multi-crew license) is a good idea.  In other ICAO countries, student pilots are trained in the jet aircraft they will eventually fly  from day one.  After around 250-300 hours of training mostly in the simulator, they are given a MCL with that type rating.  The pilot is then able to act as second in command till they have enough hours for an ATP license.

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4. 
   

   
   

   Paul Tocknell on Oct 23, 2011

   To add on to Wes’ comment, I think the fact that even though you could fly a CJ single pilot, the deal breaker in this fantasy scenario is the type rating requirement for all turbojet aircraft.  I think it becomes apparent that you have to have a type rating to fly a turbojet solo yet you have to have a pilot certificate in order to get a type rating.  Put the horse in front of the cart.  First get a pilot’s certificate and THEN the type rating.  

   If you had money to burn and wanted to start out big, I suppose you could possibly do your primary training in a King Air 200.  Just make sure you get a logbook endorsement for complex and high performance in addition to your solo logbook endorsements!

   (One a side note, I actually know of a guy *with money to burn* who started out his primary training in a Cessna 421 and soon realized the errors of his ways and completed the training in a 172)

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5. 
   

   
   

   Bob Watson on Oct 24, 2011

   I think the Navy and the Air Force do all their primary training in jet aircraft, so it’s certainly not unheard of. You could do a lot of flight instruction in the sim to save some money (and wear and tear on the aircraft).
    
   Whether you have money to burn or not, I’ve always felt it’s better to practice in something that allows you to make mistakes (e.g. rough landings) without excessive consequence. I’d rather perfect landing techniques in something built for the task (e.g. a 172) or at least isn’t too expensive to repair in the worst-case scenario. But I don’t have money to burn so that could be coloring my perspective.

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6. 
   

   
   

   Micah on Oct 24, 2011

   Bob, I’m quite certain that the Navy and Air Force do not perform primary training in jets. My experience is limited, but I’ll describe what I’ve seen. For the record, my best two AF students are now flying the F-16 and the U-28 (Pilatus) and have two separate tracks.
    
   Shortly after getting my CFI I took a job with the Aero Club at the local AFB (the flight school I was working at was a 45-minute one-way commute and gas/food consume all of my meager wages). When I went to work at the Aero Club the programs in play were IFS (Initial Flight Screening) for pilot and navigator applicants (following on IFT and NIFT / Initial Flight Training) and all of this experience was obtained in the C172 (which is what we had in our fleet). Since then, the AF moved all of its initial training to Pueblo, CO, to train in the Diamond. Not sure if that program still operates in the same capacity.
    
   The IFT / IFS programs provided 50 hours (or 25 for IFS) of initial training in the piston single and all students were expected to graduate with an FAA certificate (IFT) or solo (IFS). After completing this training the pilot/navigator would be transferred to an AF training squadron. (It was quite humbling to speak later to my student who was training in the F16 and know that his initial experience was molded by me.) The AF now uses the “Beech” (Pilatus) T-6 Texan II for all initial flight training (that’s the second initial… unless the program has changed) before the pilots are sorted / assigned. Once assigned, these pilots go into fighter/bomber or tanker/transport; I believe the fighter/bomber track uses the T-37 (“Tweet”) and the tanker/transport uses the T-1 (Beechjet 400).
    
   After these training assignments are finished, pilots begin to train in their specific aircraft. My U-28 flying student actually was assigned to the Navy training schools and flew the T-34 Turbomentor (before the T-6 was fully adopted) and then trained in the King Air before jumping in the Pilatus. 
    
   I’m guessing that both of these guys trained about 250-300 hours before getting wings in their specific aircraft. Their progressions probably looked something like this (both got FAA single-engine licenses, one paid for it out of pocket because his program only provided the first 25 hours).
    
   Student 1 (likely progression)
   Cessna 172: FAA private pilot [piston single]
   T-6 Texan II: initial flight training, instrument flight training [turbo prop single]
   T-37: fighter/bomber initial training [turbojet “multi”]
   F-16 (trainer): dual training in the F-16 
    
   Student 2 (likely progression)
   Cessna 172: FAA private pilot
   T-34 Turbomentor: initial flight training, instrument flight training [turboprop single]
   King Air: Navy trainer [turboprop multi]

   U-28/Pilatus: [turboprop single]

   I don’t have all of the specifics for these 2 cases, but you can see that their training focuses a lot of time and energy on “simpler” aircraft.

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7. 
   

   
   

   Micah on Oct 24, 2011

   Actually… (fuzzy memories, maybe you’re better off looking this up) I think the fighter/bomber track is T-38 and the tanker/transport track is the T-37… in any case, the point is that the Air Force and Navy have layers of training in different types of aircraft and one student may train in 5 or 6 different aircraft before ending up with a final assignment.

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8. 
   

   
   

   Kris Kortokrax on Oct 24, 2011

   Paul,
   Take a look at 14 CFR 61.31(l)(2)(ii).  The rating limitations do not apply to a student pilot.  If one had a sufficient surplus of cash and lack of common sense, one could legally fly the turbojet solo without the type rating.

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9. 
   

   
   

   Wes Beard on Oct 25, 2011

   Kris,
   The regulation you cited requires authorization from the FAA.  Somehow I don’t think they will issue such an authorization to a student seeking a PP AMEL with type.   I could be wrong though.
    
   It’s very subtle but the last word in §61.31(b)(3) is “and” meaning every bullet point (1-4) applies

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10. 
    

    
    

    Kris Kortokrax on Oct 25, 2011

    61.31(a) requires a type rating.  61.31(b) deals with authorization in lieu of a type rating.
     
    61.31(l)(2)(ii) states that the rating limitations of this section (61.31) do not apply to “The holder of a student pilot certificate.  A type rating is a rating.  The type rating limitation of 61.31(a) does not apply to a student, hence there is no need for the authorization discussed in 61.31(b).

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