Landing Currency and Safety Piloting

13 Answers

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   Mark Kolber on Apr 05, 2015

   Whichever one of you is acting as PIC needs to be passenger-current in your scenario. If the flying pilot is acting as PIC, the safety pilot is a required crewmember only when the flying pilot has the hood on. If the safety pilot is acting as PIC, if you think about it, the flying pilot isn’t required at all (can the safety pilot go up all by himself? Of course he can!).

   It seems logical that since my buddy and I both are logging PIC time… .

   It’s only logical if you accept a false assumption – that who gets to log the time on a flight has anything whatsoever to do with questions of authority and responsibility. It doesn’t.

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   Anderson Frazier on Apr 06, 2015

   That is actually a good way of looking at it, Many thanks!

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   Thomas R Glanville on Apr 07, 2015

   Mark, According to several FAA guys the only way it works for both pilots to log it PIC is that the Safety Pilot has to be PIC for the enter flight. The pilot flying during “under the hood”, only gets to log it as PIC under the Sole Manipulator of the Controls rule. Under 121/135 PIC is determined before the flight. No switching during that same flight, which also goes for a Safety Pilot.
   See my answer to Simulated Instrument/Safety Pilot

   Fly Safe

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   Steve Butler on Apr 07, 2015

   Thomas, I think you have it backwards. Here is the 2009 Gebhart interpretation from the FAA. http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/gebhart%20-%20(2009)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

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   Mark Kolber on Apr 08, 2015

   It’s not uncommon for “several FAA guys” to make up their own rules instead of the FAA’s. Even less uncommon for pilots speaking with them to misunderstand what they say about the rules.

   The FAA’s rules of logging PIC in this situation – a safety pilot acting as PIC – has been the same for more than 20 years: Flying pilot logs PIC as “sole manipulator,” safety pilot logs PIC as the one acting as PIC in a flight requiring more than one pilot (only while the flying pilot is under the hood). That, of course, requires that the safety pilot be the one =acting= as PIC.

   I don’t think it matters if the safety pilot is =acting= as PIC for the whole flight or if the safety pilot only takes that role when the flying pilot is under the hood.

   121/135 rules determine who may =act= as PIC in a given situation, so yeah, if the pilot =acting= as PIC can’t change, the logging rules for the safety pilot are affected since acting as PIC is a condition for a safety pilot to log PIC. Understanding that still requires understanding that “acting” and “logging” are separate events governed by separate rules. (I’m still trying to picture a 135/121 operation with one of the pilots under the hood!)

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   Thomas R Glanville on Apr 08, 2015

   Thanks Mark and Steve for getting back with me.
   I think you will agree that you can get 5 FAA guys together and not all will agree to the rules or even know a rule. I think you will agree the reason being is that the rules are not as clear cut and sometimes must go to other areas in the book to get the correct rule and over time interpret rules as they see them. I was at Sim-Com and there was an FAA guy teaching instrument to the instructor’s there. At lunch it came up what he knew about on an approach plate and it said ADF REQUIRED. Said he didn’t know any such plate existed. When shown he said will that’s obvious that you have to have an ADF to do the approach. He didn’t even know that it meant “or a legal GPS in its place. Go figure the FAA. And he was teaching?
   There is a great rules and regulation book, I had one at one time and that looks just like the FAR/AIM. I was told that just about every rule has been contested in court. It has the rule, the FAA interpretation and the court ruling.
   Mark you are right that the FAA’s rules of logging PIC in this situation haven’t changed. However it does matter that the Safety Pilot acts as PIC the whole flight.
   91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command. (a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as, the operation of that aircraft.
   No where does it state that the PIC has to be actually flying it. In Steve’s sent pdf it was stated; As agreed to PRIOR to the flight, pilot A flies the aircraft and pilot B ACTS as the PIC. Since it was agreed before the flight the Safety pilot acting PIC is responsible even when the other is not under the hood. It has to be this way, if an incident happens, which there has been, it leave no argument to who is responsible. Can you imagine if an incident was to happen and two pilots are arguing who’s in charge? Years ago our flight insurance company sent out a memo. It informed us that since the safety pilot is PIC that that pilot be on and qualify for our insurance.
   What I was referring to on 121/135 was that the captain is PIC and responsible for the entire flight even though the F.O. is flying and logs it all as PIC.
   I guess we can agree to disagree, but find yourself as a safety pilot and the other pilot damages the aircraft or breaks a flight rule who do you think they are coming after?
   FLY SAFE

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   Mark Kolber on Apr 09, 2015

   Well, Thomas, I guess in your view I’ve been doing it all wrong. For years I flew with a friend as safety pilot. We would switch off being under the hood and our standing rule (assuming both qualified) was, “he who can see outside is the pilot in command.” We saw that as a rule that was the best for safety.

   Perhaps you can find something from the FAA to say that’s all wrong and the same person who starts the flight as PIC must always be the one who is PIC for the entire duration of the flight. I can’t find anything even suggesting that.

   So, I guess you are saying that, on an international flight, the same pilot is always PIC even if he is precluded from being on duty at all due to Part 121 flight time limitations despite the rules requiring a relief PIC.

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   Mark Kolber on Apr 09, 2015

   who do you think they are coming after?

   Potentially both of us with varying success based on the nature of the incident and our flight responsibilities as required crewmembers.

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   Kris Kortokrax on Apr 09, 2015

   Thomas,

   You appear to be trying to explain the rules concerning safety pilots, acting as PIC and logging PIC time to Mark, someone who already knows and understands these rules.

   It is also apparent from your explanation that you do not understand these rules.

   You keep insisting that the safety pilot needs to be designated as the PIC before the flight commences and must remain as PIC for the entire flight. I refer you to the definition of PIC in 14 CFR Part 1:

   “Pilot in command means the person who:

   (1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;

   (2) Has been designated as pilot in command before OR DURING the flight; and

   (3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.”

   135.109 does require designation of a PIC and an SIC (if required) prior to a flight under Part 135. The flight described by the original poster is not taking place under Part 135 and those rules do not apply. There is no corresponding rule under Part 91 that requires designation of a PIC before a flight begins and there is no proscription concerning changing the PIC during a flight. If you believe there is, then provide the reference.

   If Pilot A and Pilot B decide to go flying for the purposes of maintaining instrument currency, the flight may begin with Pilot A acting as PIC and having Pilot B assume those duties and responsibilities while Pilot A is under the hood and then having Pilot A resume as PIC when the hood is taken off.

   Unless your five FAA guys work for the Office of Chief Counsel, they can no more interpret regulations than you or Mark or I.

   If you want to talk about the rules, at least reference them.

   91.109(c) is the rule requiring the safety pilot. He is only required while the other pilot is operating the aircraft under simulated instrument conditions. He is not required for the entire flight.

   91.3 is the rule describing PIC responsibility and authority. It says nothing about needing to designate the PIC before flight. It also is silent concerning changing the PIC during a flight.

   61.51(e) deals with logging PIC time, which is a completely separate issue from acting as PIC. Since the safety pilot is only a required crewmember when the other pilot is under the hood, he cannot log PIC time for the entire flight. This is supported by legal interpretations from people in the FAA who actually can interpret regulations. Further, the safety pilot cannot log cross country time, unless he conducts the takeoff and landing. If this is the case, then the other pilot cannot log cross country time. Only one of the pilots on board can log cross country.

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    Thomas R Glanville on Apr 09, 2015

    Mark, Kris, Steve
    I love you guys! This is what, Ask a CFI is all about!
    Friendly explanations between expert pilots on rules, procedures, even techniques for new, and old, and up coming pilots can learn. A day you go without learning something is a day wasted!
    What we have going on here is, Book smart, practical smart and actuality. And use of some common sense. I’ve read thru several of other threads and there is lots of book smart. Some practical smart, but no actuality, or maybe I just missed it? What I was asked by pilot friends/students was to bring in actuality. And I think I can add to the other too.
    Remember in an earlier post I said one needs to look to other sections to get the correct rule? This is what we have going on here. Kris you said that Mark knows the rules and I believe you do too, but you aren’t using all of the rules to make it the reality of the rule. Does that make sense?
    Kris, what I’m trying to say is that you used from Part 1 about being PIC is a GENRAL definition to apply to a Part in the FAR’s. Let’s look at Part 135.109 Pilot in command or second in command: Designation required. (a) Each certificate holder shall designate a— (1) Pilot in command for each flight; and (2) Second in command for each flight requiring two pilots. This is where it gets interesting…(b) The pilot in command, as designated by the certificate holder. SHALL REMAIN THE PILOT IN COMMAND AT ALL TIMES DURING THAT FLIGHT.
    Now I don’t have a 121 book handy but my son tells me that there is a rule as Mark mentions that covers 121 international flights or as he explained. That covers the “OR” in the general definition.
    Now let’s bring in the actuality for Part 91. I’ve already posted 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command. (a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as, the operation of that aircraft. Because of an incident many years before that letter of 2009, with lawyers and insurance companies involved, it was determined that the actual acting PIC for this rule is determined before the flight. Which is why he wrote, As agreed to PRIOR to the flight, pilot A flies the aircraft and pilot B ACTS as the PIC. He failed, as others, and maybe because they just didn’t want to for their own reasons change the rest? Probably because it would have been too involved to do so? The flying pilot gets to log it PIC because of the Sole Manipulator of the controls rule. Something to think about using common sense, doesn’t this rule also pertain to even if not doing hood work? I do believe it does! Haven’t you let your friend that was rated in that aircraft fly it? Wasn’t he PIC during that time covered by this rule? You are still PIC because you are responsible. In Part 91 it doesn’t matter if you are in the left seat or right.
    In my beginning as a student a student couldn’t log solo time as PIC. I questioned this as I do all rules. I asked if I’m solo and no one else is on board, and it says someone has to be PIC to be legal to fly, then who is PIC? They soon changed the rule!
    I would guess, and don’t know, don’t care, if you switch being under the hood during flight that would be up to your discretion if you do or not. Fact is that if there is an incident or violation the PIC determined BEFORE the flight is the one that will be on his or her recorded. The other pilot probably will get reprimanded also. Go figure?
    Fly Safe

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    Thomas R Glanville on Apr 09, 2015

    The Office of Chief Counsel? They have been wrong before as that book I was mentioning before shows.

    Fly Safe

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    Mark Kolber on Apr 10, 2015

    Of course the Office of Chief Counsel has been wrong. Sometimes it has even contradicted itself. But that’s exceedingly rare since, in general, (1) an agency’s interpretation of its own regulations is entitled to (various levels of) deference, even by the courts and (2) the Chief Counsel’s office is the last word in the FAA’s interpretation of its own regulations.

    Even in the book you mention – probably FARs Explained – I think you’ll find far more references to Chief Counsel interpretations than you will to NTSB, Court decisions, or regulatory action contradicting them.

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    Kris Kortokrax on Apr 10, 2015

    Thomas,

    Your post is for all practical purposes incoherent. You introduce terms like “practical smart” and “actuality”, but you fail to define the terms and give no example of how the outcome of applying these concepts would differ from the outcome produced by “book smart” (reading the regulation, legal interpretations and NTSB case decisions).

    The definition of “Pilot in Command” in Part 1 applies to all the parts of the regulations, unless a different definition is found. An example of this occurs in 135.293(b). There is a definition of the word “type” in Part 1, but in 135.293(b) it states:

    “For the purposes of this paragraph, type, as to an airplane, means any one of a group of airplanes determined by the Administrator to have a similar means of propulsion, the same manufacturer, and no significantly different handling or flight characteristics. For the purposes of this paragraph, type, as to a helicopter, means a basic make and model.”

    Nowhere in the regulations is there a definition of “Pilot in command” that differs from the one in Part 1. 91.3 outlines the authority of the PIC and makes him responsible for the operation of the aircraft. Nowhere is it stated that the PIC must be determined prior to flight. The wording in the Gebhart interpretation is describing a hypothetical situation presented to discuss logging PIC time. It is not a determination made by Legal Counsel that a PIC need to be designated prior to any flight. If so, they would probably discuss the form which that designation might take. Is it enough for the pilot to think to himself that he is going to be the PIC or does there need to be some written declaration made and filed somewhere?

    The book to which you keep referring is “FARs Explained” written by Kent Jackson. This book is nothing new. It has been around for a long time. Due to the fact that there are new legal interpretations issued monthly and new cases being decided regularly, the book is probably out of date on the day it is printed.

    You continually refer to Part 121 and 135 concerning Part 91 operations. The 121 regulation concerning designating crew members is 121.385(c) and it does not require the PIC to remain the same for the entire flight. That wording only appears in 135.109. 135.1 discusses the applicability of Part 135. Nowhere is it stated that any Part 135 regulation applies to Part 91 operations. You need to give up on the idea that Part 135 regulations have any bearing on a Part 91 flight.

    With regard to your observation concerning students logging PIC, I soloed in 1970 and could log solo time, but not PIC. In my 1981 book of regulations, the situation remained unchanged. The didn’t change the rule too quickly.

    What is really laughable is that in your first post, you seem to be relying on the opinion of “several FAA guys” to make the point that the safety pilot must be designated PIC for the entire flight. In your second post, you then say that it is likely that 5 FAA guys won’t agree on the rules or even know the rules. You reference “FARs Explained” as an authority because it contains legal interpretations and then in your last post, you seem to denigrate the very people who issue the legal interpretations included in the book.

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