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Question about req’d endorsements for student pilot solo

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Flight Instructor

I've started ground training for CFI and was told that my knowledge was deficient on the regs for endorsements  for student solo . Can you help me get "unconfused" on the following  questions:

question 1/ re:Student Pilot Solo Flight endorsements... Part 61.87 (n) states that a CFI needs to enter an endorsement on the student's certificate [ref sub para (1)] and in their logbook [ref sub para (2)] and specifies make and model, etc. ... Part 61.87 paragraph (b) states that you have to give a pre-solo knowledge test and review it with the student BUT does NOT specifically state that this event requires a logbook entry. AC 61-65 lists it as an example entry however. Is AC 61-65 regulatory and thus all suggested endorsements within it mandatory? At the least, I guess it is a good idea to log the knowledge test completion but I'm just wondering how this became "mandatory"?

 

When asked what is required, I'll say all three but I just would like to be clear on how or why  the pre-solo knowledge test is a mandatory "endorsement". I thought the logbook endoresement to solo (Part 61.87(N)(2) effectively included that. Thanks.

6 Answers



  1. Nathan Parker on Dec 01, 2012

    You’re right that there is no specific regulatory requirement that the pre-solo written be logged, but AC 61-65 lists it as a required endorsement, so it tends to be expected. It does make sense due to the fact that what isn’t logged didn’t happen as far as the regulations are concerned.

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  2. David Eberhardt on Dec 02, 2012

    roger that Nathan, thanks. I will treat it as “required” since it is in the AC.

    I also found the following posted on http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/advisory-circular.94477/

    “From AC 00-2.15 – ADVISORY CIRCULAR CHECKLIST:

    3. Explanation of the AC system. The FAA issues advisory circulars to inform the aviation public in a systematic way of non-regulatory material. Unless incorporated into a regulation by reference, the contents of an advisory circular are not binding on the public.”

    The same paragraph goes on to say. “An AC is issued to provide guidance and information in a designated subject area or to show a method acceptable to the Administrator for complying with a related Federal Aviation Regulation.”

    So, they are not “binding” BUT they “show a method acceptable to the Administrator for complying with a related Federal Aviation Regulation.”

    kinda like being volun-told (volunteered/told) to do something???

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  3. Lucas on Dec 02, 2012

    Also keep in mind that you will never be questioned for over endorsing a student, while missing endorsements can lead to fines, violations and possible rejection of students qualifications during their final check ride.

    So, when in doubt, just go ahead and slap that endorsement on the logbook anyway.

    Here is a list off all the endorsements for a student solo. (You also need to endorse the back of the medical/student pilot certificate).

    1. Presolo aeronautical knowledge: section 61.87(b).
    I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has satisfactorily completed the presolo knowledge exam of section 61.87(b) for the (make and model aircraft).

    2. Presolo flight training: section 61.87(c).
    I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required presolo training in a (make and model aircraft). I have determined he/she has demonstrated the proficiency of
    section 61.87(d) and is proficient to make solo flights in (make and model aircraft).

    3. Presolo flight training at night: section 61.87(c) and (o).
    I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required presolo training in a (make and model aircraft). I have determined he/she has demonstrated the proficiency of
    section 61.87(o) and is proficient to make solo flights at night in a (make and model aircraft).

    4. Solo flight (each additional 90-day period): section 61.87(p).
    I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training to qualify for solo flying. I have determined he/she meets the applicable requirements of section 61.87(p) and is proficient to make solo flights in (make and model).

    5. Solo takeoffs and landings at another airport within 25 nm: section 61.93(b)(1).
    I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of
    section 61.93(b)(1). I have determined that he/she is proficient to practice solo takeoffs and landings at (airport name). The takeoffs and landings at (airport name) are subject to the following conditions: (List any applicable conditions or limitations.)

    9. Solo flight in Class B airspace: section 61.95(a).
    I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of section 61.95(a). I have determined he/she is proficient to conduct solo flights in (name of Class B) airspace. (List any applicable conditions or limitations.)

    10. Solo flight to, from, or at an airport located in Class B airspace: section 61.95(a) and
    section 91.131(b)(1).
    I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of
    section 61.95(a)(1). I have determined that he/she is proficient to conduct solo flight operations at (name of airport). (List any applicable conditions or limitations.)

    The night training might probably not be required at all, unless you are training in Alaska, Also the Class B stuff is only applicable if you are actually training in or close to Class B.
    So just use common sense and again over endorsing is always better.

    Lucas
    http://passfaaexams.com/

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  4. Sam Dawson on Dec 03, 2012

    Also remember 61.189 requires a CFI endorse a logbook for ALL training given, flight and ground. If not endorsed in a logbook it did not occur in the eyes of the FAA. Prior to sending a pilot for a check ride you must ensure all required training (flight and ground), is recorded.
    Also with student pilots you need to ensure all required training for solo is recorded. I have seen students solo with no record of cross wind landings. No cross wind landings, no solo.

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  5. Lagmanbek on Dec 08, 2012

    To amplify Sam Dawson’s post, at minimum there are 3 long lists of training that must be done before each category of solo flight: solo within 25 n.m. of the home airport, night, and cross-country. The list for initial solo flight is found at 61.87(d) for single-engine airplane. Before night solo – 61.87(o). Before cross-country – 61.93(e) for single-engine airplane.

    There are other considerations for airports within 25 n.m., repeated cross-country flights less than 50 n.m., and Class B.

    The lists are amazingly comprehensive, and again, the requirements are to be “trained and logged.”

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  6. David Eberhardt on Dec 08, 2012

    Lucas – I have a printed copy of AC 61-65E – Certification: Pilots and Flight and Ground Instructors … as I said in a previous post – according to AC 00-2.15, ACs “show a method acceptable to the Administrator for complying with a related Federal Aviation Regulation.”

    so I treat AC 61-65E as defacto “regulation”…

    Sam Dawson said ” If not endorsed in a logbook it did not occur in the eyes of the FAA” – Sam, that’s a gem of practical wisdom! thank you.

    Lagmanbek – “The list for initial solo flight is found at 61.87(d) for single-engine airplane.” Yes, and I believe you need to record that in the remarks area after each flight logged if training under Part 61 … I believe Part 141 uses more comprehensive training records or folders for each student.

    thank you for the help guys

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