IFR Flying without IFR Rating

Gary Moore on Aug 16, 2012

Really? If no one knows is it okay? FAR’s are enforced just like any other law and regulation. You may indeed get away with it sometime. There is a lot of evidence out there that shows non IFR trained pilots don’t do very well in IMC.

The penalty for violating the regulations (assuming that you get caught before you kill yourself) varies – but this particular one probably means losing your ticket – perhaps not indefinitely – but still…

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Chris grimes on Aug 16, 2012

Ryan,
To answer your question (can a VFR pilot fly in IFR conditions) NO.
Take a look in NTSB and see what happens when they do….not pretty.
The bottom line is you lose sight of the ground, your gonna fly into it!

“There are pilots out there without an IFR rating perfectly capable of flying in IMC”
Some maybe, most no. How will they find the runway if is overcast 400 feet and the visibility 1/2 statute? One word “Spatial Disorientation”

Keep it safe, learn to fly in good weather first 🙂

Chris

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Chris grimes on Aug 16, 2012

Ryan,
To answer your question (can a VFR pilot fly in IFR conditions) NO.
Take a look in NTSB and see what happens when they do….not pretty.
The bottom line is you lose sight of the ground, your gonna fly into it!

“There are pilots out there without an IFR rating perfectly capable of flying in IMC”
Some maybe, most no. How will they find the runway if is overcast 400 feet and the visibility 1/2 statute? One word “Spatial Disorientation”

Keep it safe, learn to fly in good weather first 🙂

Chris

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Ryan on Aug 16, 2012

Gary, I never typed or implied that getting away with anything is ok. I also never implied I condone this kind of activity or think it to be a good idea. I simply was wondering about the possibilities and potential consequences thereafter. By the way, my question was in regard to those pilots who are perfectly capable to fly in IMC without an IFR rating..aka people who would not “kill themselves before they get caught.” And for the record, even I know that there are many IFR qualified pilots without that piece off paper behind their name.

Still waiting for an answer on how exactly they would get caught and who exactly would enforce the penalties.

Thoughts and comments welcomed
-Ryan

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Wes Beard on Aug 16, 2012

Ryan,
It really is a bad idea. This is one reason why the FAA still does ramp checks. Imagine just landing at an airport with a ceiling 200′ and visibility 1/4 SM. It is obvious they are flying IMC. It FAA personnel asks to see your pilots license and other documents only to find out you are not legal to fly in the clouds. EMERGENCY REVOCATION! Period.

How about accidently getting off of your altitude one too many times and the ATC personnel are forced to notify the FSDO. The list can go on and on.

The biggest thing is the fact that unless you have had specific training flying under instrument conditions (actual or simulated) that risk is too great. A study once concluded that a non proficient pilot in the clouds had less than 3 minutes to live.

The second biggest thing with your statement that caught my eye was comparing others who do this with it somehow not being an issue. I agree with Gary’s statement. We cannot compromise ourselves because we see others apparently getting away with something.

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Keith on Aug 16, 2012

They would get caught via ramp check or after an incident occurred by, of course, a super-awesome(in their head) FAA nerd. the penalty would coincide with the severity of the bad decision and consequence so I’m not exactly sure in what it would be. We’ve all pushed the limits and done some stupid shizzle and because some of us lived through it doesn’t mean we’d do it again, but it does get chicks. chicks are people the FAA frown upon just like they frown upon Santa for not being IFR rated or registering that slay of his. It doesnt stop Santa.

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Koehn on Aug 17, 2012

There are plenty of legal scenarios where a non-instrument rated pilot can fly into IMC. Some are illegal and often fatal as mentioned above and in countless NTSB reports. However, if you have an instrument-current CFII or safety pilot in the right seat you’re perfectly legal.

If you fly out West in the large expanses of class G airspace up to 14,500 feet you’ll find plenty of people flying in IMC without an IFR flight plan (which is legal as long as you and your airplane are instrument rated and current). There are many times that people who aren’t instrument rated and/or current go too.

A friend of mine was flying on an IFR flight plan in radar contact nearly collided with another plane in IMC. The other plane was not on an IFR flight plan and had its transponder turned off. My friend informed ATC which tracked the aircraft on radar and had it met by local law enforcement until the folks from a nearby FSDO could perform a proper ramp check. I don’t know what the penalty for this case was but I’m guessing the pilot lost his/her certificate at least.

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Kris Kortokrax on Aug 17, 2012

Emergency revocation is not the prescribed penalty. NTSB cases show 30, 60 and 180 day suspensions for various cases.

As to who would know if a given pilot has an instrument rating, that information is publicly available on the FAA’s website (www.faa.gov). Pilot certificates, ratings, medical class and dates are and have been available for many years.

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Matthew Waugh on Aug 17, 2012

As others have mentioned – PIC emergency privileges, another pilot who is rated etc. are legal ways of doing it.

I once knew of an ex-ATC controller, Private Pilot, no Instrument Rating who filed and flew IFR for years (I never really did figure out if he flew IMC, but he almost certainly had to have done SOME IMC if he flew regularly). Never got caught.

It’s like lots of things – you can probably do it a LOT, you only have to get caught once….

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Ryan on Aug 17, 2012

I appreciate all these responses, it’s obvious to me that this website is a great source of information. Thanks for helping me out with my questions

I think I should have been a little more specific with my question because I think it came off as me wondering whether or not some new VFR pilot who knows nothing about instrument flying can pull off flying in IMC. This isn’t exactly what my question pertains to.

I’m talking about great pilots who have IFR equipped airplanes and enough knowledge to properly operate that equipment. I admit that I’m a new member to this site and new to private pilot training, but I’m not new to aviation in general and I do know that there are plenty of pilots without IFR rating totally capable that can and do fly in IMC frequently. I get the feeling that most of you are drawing an extremely thick line between those who have their IFR rating and those that don’t. Too thick.

Gary said, “The penalty for violating the regulations (assuming that you get caught before you kill yourself)…”

Chris said, “How will they find the runway if is overcast 400 feet and the visibility 1/2 statute?”

Wes said, “Imagine just landing at an airport with a ceiling 200′ and visibility 1/4 SM. It is obvious they are flying IMC..How about accidently getting off of your altitude one too many times and the ATC personnel are forced to notify the FSDO..”

My response to all of these comments are simply that pilots not able to confidentally and properly fly in these circumstances are not the ones that I’m asking about. How will they find the runway with overcast and low visibility? The same way you do! Why will they not accidentally get off altitude too many times? The same reason you don’t!

Understand that I’m not scheming some plan to figure out a way to break the rules and risk my life in IMC without the proper training. I’m simply just trying to build a solid foundation by understanding why people Don’t do these kinds of things in the first place.

I guess my next question is how often are there ramp checks?

Thoughts and comments encouraged!
Thanks again
Ryan

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John D. Collins on Aug 17, 2012

Normally, I try not to be negative about questions on this forum, but his one rubs me the wrong way. The fact that some pilots deliberately break the rules may be true and they may even get away with it for some time, but that is no excuse for their actions. Such pilots are identified by the five dangerous attitudes that we all learn about. They hit at least three of the five square on the head, certainly anti-authority, invulnerability, and macho and many add impulsivity. I don’t want to be flying around these people and if I become aware of the kind of actions suggested, I will personally alert the FAA. They are a hazard to all of us who fly by the rules to the best of our ability as well as to their passengers and anyone else they may injure. NTSB is full of examples of their accidents. Almost all of the rules were paid for in blood.

As far as ramp checks are concerned, if you know what your rights are and are following the rules, you have nothing to fear. I would respectfully suggest it would be more productive to get the proper training and follow the rules than to try to figure out how likely it is to get caught.

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Ryan on Aug 18, 2012

I won’t waste my time making this into a personal argument with you John, instead I’m going to just totally disregard your irrational and uninformative comment on this topic.

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Lucas on Aug 18, 2012

Dear Ryan
Ramp checks are not conducted as often as they should. Personally I have over 12,000 hours and have never been ramp checked and out of the thousands of students I have trained only one was ramp checked in Albany (NY).
You need to understand that if a person wants to put their life at risk that is their own business, but this is a different case. People flying in IFR without an instrument rating are probably flying under the radar (no flight plan and transponder off) and this is not just putting their own life at risk, this puts potentially hundreds of people at risk. If you fly with your transponder off, controllers are not really able to see you (only a small echo on secondary radar) and this is a recipe for disaster, as you could hit a jet full of passengers.
I am not a person that sees life or flying as black and white, there is a lot of gray areas, but this is definitely not one of them.

Put your self in our shoes and pretend that you are happily instrument rated and flying along on an IFR flight plan with your wife and two kids with you, but you never make it to your destination because some “IDIOT” decides to fly in that same cloud with no instrument rating.

As you noticed the reaction to your question in this forum was not one of love. I hope you now understand why.

If you know of people that are flying IFR without an instrument rating, please talk to them and try to convince them to add the rating to their license. I mean if they are that good why not just get the rating after all, so we can all just keep enjoy flying instead of wondering if we are alone in that cloud.

Lucas
http://passfaaexams.com/

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Bob Watson on Aug 18, 2012

The FAA has studied this type of behavior and, if you want to know why people do it, John listed the reasons found by the FAA, not just his personal view.

But if you’re wondering why people do it? I guess I don’t really understand that either. If you are a capable pilot and have a more-than-capable plane, why break the rules? Why not spend a week or two and get an instrument rating? If you’re in a hurry, there are 10-day courses, which, if you’re already a proficient VFR pilot, should be no problem at all.

With IFR flying and perhaps more to the point, flying in IMC, your biggest concern is probably not the FAA but mother nature. Mother nature might only catch you once, but that’s all she needs because she’s not very forgiving.

One error in the logic I see is that if you have a capable plane, you don’t need as capable of a pilot to fly it. I’d argue that the more capable the plane (assuming it’s not an autonomous drone), you need a more capable pilot to fly it safely because there are more things to manage. Flying has shown that you can’t just buy your way to proficiency and capability. There are many [sad] stories of successful people buying more plane they are ready for and finding that out the hard way (i.e. fatally). Again, mother nature only needs to catch you once.

Having a bit of a rebellious (anti-authority) streak, I can appreciate the sentiment of “hey if I can do it why do I need to follow the rules,” but, if you think about it, the only way IFR flying is as safe as it is, is because it has rules that everyone follows. You just can’t safely get all those moving parts (i.e. airplanes with people in them) moving around that far and that fast without everyone understanding and playing by the same rules. If you’re used to solving problems by reacting, that doesn’t work in IMC like it might in VMC because you can’t react to what you can’t perceive. Your airplane, no matter how well equipped, can’t do that for you, either, so it all comes back to having a properly trained and proficient pilot.

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Ryan on Aug 18, 2012

Lucas and Bob, thanks for your great responses.

Lucas – Why would people flying IFR without a rating be flying under the radar with their transponders off? Again, The question I’m asking pertains to pilots that do Everything an IFR rated pilot does, but without the rating. If an IFR rated pilot doesn’t fly under the rader, then neither do the ones I’m asking this question about, see what I’m saying?
-Also, there is no reason everyone’s reaction should “not be one of love” in this forum. I’m asking questions and trying to learn from the answers, there is absolutely no reason that should be discouraged. If some of you can’t rationally answer a question like this or can’t have a rational conversation about why and how people break the rules in the air, then this forum post is not for you – move on to another. This is something I’m learning from, not something I intend on doing.

Bob – One reason I find that people don’t get their instrument rating is money. It’s not just a 10 day course that qualifies you. It’s a 6,000 to 9,000 dollar expense, and most general aviation pilots don’t have that kind of money sitting around. Just a thought

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MaggotCFII on Aug 18, 2012

Answer to question 1: Yes, if the pilot chooses to engage in “careless or reckless operation”, or gets dibbled by the weather.

Answer to question 2: “Penalties” – If bad things happen never mind the FAA, think about an insurance company saying “claim denied”. Then think about our magnificent legal system which would enforce the civil version of negligence and liability.

And like John – I would “drop the dime”.

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Charles Robertson on Aug 18, 2012

How would a pilot become fully proficient in IFR flying without having the qualifications for the rating?

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Bob Watson on Aug 19, 2012

You’re right, an instrument rating (or any pilot certificate) isn’t cheap. And, sure, there will always be people who try to cheap out on training and maintenance. That might work for a while, but invariably ends up in disaster. Why do people do this anyway? Ignorance. I’m not sure what more you can say about it.

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Tom on Aug 20, 2012

The underlying fact is, that for the most part aviation is an honor system. Can someone that had IFR training and never got his rating file a flight plan and go off on his own, Yes. His only chance of getting caught is getting ramp checked, crashing, or screwing up enough ATC makes a call to FSDO. Like all the other questions out there, can someone without a student certificate go up and fly on his own, if he has enough experience and availability to an aircraft, sure he can. Like the constant questions about logging time, yes you can log PIC when you are sitting back seat, hell you can log a flight without leaving your house. Chance of someone catching on is slim. You chances of injury,death, are higher. If you are working on your licenses and get caught making up hours, you bet you are in deep and can kiss licenses and any chance of a career goodbye. The FARs are written, skating around them is fairly easy, penalty when getting caught severe. I hope that answers the question.

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Ash on Aug 20, 2012

Tom, you nailed it! Aviation is based on an honor system, and people who choose to disregard the rules (i.e. file and fly IFR flight plans without holding the proper certifications etc.) are castigated, if not by the FAA than most certainly by their fellow pilots.

Just look at the overwhelmingly negative response to Ryan’s initial post for your proof. Even the mere (naïve?) suggestion of rule breaking is met with such disdain!

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Kris Kortokrax on Aug 21, 2012

Ryan,

Just trying to answer some of your questions/assertions in the order they appear.

“There are pilots out there without an IFR rating perfectly capable of flying in IMC”.
Who made the determination that these individuals are perfectly capable? Can’t be you because you are not a pilot. Certainly can’t be the pilots themselves, as capability should be an objective, not subjective evaluation.

“What are the penalties for doing so, and who is going to enforce those penalties?”
Everyone pretty much mentioned ramp checks by the FAA and FAA penalties. No one mentioned that the FAA regulations also allow for federal, state and local law enforcement officers to conduct a ramp check, as well as NTSB officials and TSA officials. (see 61.3(l))

In addition, states can and do enact statutes that mirror FAA regulations. Here in Illinois, there is a state statue that mandates that a pilot “present his pilot certificate for inspection upon demand by any passenger, peace officer of this state, any officer or authorized employee or designee of the Division, or any official, manager or person in charge of any airport or RLA in Illinois upon which the airman lands.”

” I get the feeling that most of you are drawing an extremely thick line between those who have their IFR rating and those that don’t. Too thick.”

Yes, you are correct. Most everyone is drawing a line. Do you ever draw any lines?

If a person stops at a bar every night and drinks until past the limit and has done so for 20 years, he has demonstrated that he can drink and drive. Is it OK?

If a pilot can safely fly from point A to point B, why shouldn’t he be able to charge you to fly your family to point B, even though he does not possess an Air Carrier Certificate?

If a person has enough disposable cash and can afford to buy a Lear Jet and is able to get if off the ground and back down successfully, should he then go fly it as a single pilot without the rating or SIC?

Everyone draws lines. The difference apparently appears to be in where we draw those lines. It appears that no one responding to this post is on the side of the line which would condone flying IFR without being properly rated.

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Ryan on Aug 21, 2012

Kris – I don’t appreciate your condescending tone. From the looks of it, you haven’t read all of my posts and you clearly misunderstand the core of my question.

““There are pilots out there without an IFR rating perfectly capable of flying in IMC”.
Who made the determination that these individuals are perfectly capable? Can’t be you because you are not a pilot. Certainly can’t be the pilots themselves, as capability should be an objective, not subjective evaluation.”

The pilots I go up with that discuss this topic in depth with me are likely more qualified of a pilot than you could dream of being – pilots for major US airlines for over 20 years. I never said I was the one determining who can or can’t fly IFR. Read better next time.

“”I get the feeling that most of you are drawing an extremely thick line between those who have their IFR rating and those that don’t. Too thick.” Yes, you are correct. Most everyone is drawing a line. Do you ever draw any lines?”

The lines you’re talking about don’t even relate to my question, smartass. I made the mistake of assuming you had a brain in your skull that could realize what “lines” I was really talking about. With enough left seat time, enough interaction with highly qualified and rated pilots, enough practice, and enough study, a VFR pilot can come damn close to being as qualified as some officially rated pilots. I’m not the main judge of this, remember those pilots who have flown for major airways for 20 years?

If a person stops at a bar every night and drinks until past the limit and has done so for 20 years, he has demonstrated that he can drink and drive. Is it OK?

No, but it does happen Frequently – and people Frequently arrive safely at their destinations. It’s a thing called reality. With your logic, I would never be allowed to dig deeper and ask why these people Do drive drunk so frequently, and how they Do manage to get home safely without first condoning the act. That makes no sense whatsoever. Try to think before you post, though it’s probably hard for you to do that. The core of my question largely regards why people do it, how often they do it, and how they manage to get back to the ground safely.

Everyone draws lines. The difference apparently appears to be in where we draw those lines. It appears that no one responding to this post is on the side of the line which would condone flying IFR without being properly rated.

The lines you are talking about have nothing to do with the core of my question. You’re talking about whether or not unqualified pilots should fly IFR, while I’m asking why they do it in the first place and who they manage to safely land! By the way, if you read my posts in their entirety, you would already know that I’m on the same side as everyone else here – I Don’t Condone Flying IFR When Not Qualified.

Here, I’ll type it again because I know that you don’t comprehend things the first time.

I Don’t Condone Flying IFR When Not Qualified.

You’ve wasted my time today,
Ryan

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Paul Tocknell on Aug 21, 2012

Ryan,

Your attitude will not be tolerated on Ask a CFI.com. This is a forum that has encouraged, from the beginning, a positive attitude towards each other and flying. You have demonstrated to all on the forum of your immature and ignorant attitude towards flying. Have you not noticed the negative way in which pilots have responded to your rants?

In my opinion, your attitude is one that is not conducive to making a good pilot. This poisonous thread has been closed to further posts.

Paul

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IFR Flying without IFR Rating

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