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9 Answers

Is this legal??

Asked by: 9994 views , ,
FAA Regulations

I am not current in fixed wing aircraft since I retired from the military 6 months ago. I am looking at buying an airplane and have a question.

 

On a pre=purchase inspection flight with the owner in the right seat who is current, airline pilot by the way, and my wife riding in the back seat can I LEGALLY fly the aircraft? It is a Beech Debonair single throw over yoke.

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9 Answers



  1. Bill Trussell on Apr 04, 2012

    Legally you may not act as pilot in command of the flight you described, given that you have indicated you are not “current” if fixed wing aircraft.  Technically you can serve as sole maipulator of the controls for the purpose of the flight in question.  I would suggest that you would not be able to log the flight time as PIC given that it is a flight carrying passengers.
    Once you have made your purchase decision, a brief flight with an instructor would be a good idea to see where you are in getting both current and comfortable in your new aircraft.  I would also suggest that you pay a visit to the FSDO office of the FAA in your area to ensure that you have been granted the correct certification based on any military flying experience you have had, if this applies to you.
    Congratulations and have a great time picking your new plane.  Sounds like fun.

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  2. Kris Kortokrax on Apr 04, 2012

    According to 61.51 (e), he certainly can log the time as PIC.
     
    My question would be whether it would be advisable to make the flight with the throwover control wheel.  While it MIGHT be legal per 91.109 (since it would not be flight instruction), it might not be wise.

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  3. Matthew Waugh on Apr 04, 2012

    I agree with Kris – he can log the time as PIC – the presence of passengers (and/or a CFI) is not relevant.
     
    As long as the owner can ACT as PIC then you’re good to go – from an FAA perspective. The wisdom of the arrangement is something really only you and the owner can come to agreement on.
     
    This is not necessarily your issue, but the owner would be wise to check his insurance policy, it may have some ideas about who sits in what seat (or it may not).

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  4. John D. Collins on Apr 04, 2012

    I agree with Kris and Matthew that you can log the time as PIC as long as the other pilot acts as PIC and you are the sole manipulator of the controls.  One if the areas I specialize in is insurance checkouts for Bonanza and Baron aircraft.  Most insurance companies require 15 to 25 hours of instruction, prior to flying with passengers, particularly if the pilot has little or no complex and high performance experience.  Although you will find the Debonair an easy airplane to fly, there is a fair amount of material to cover to get a thorough understanding of its capabilities and its systems.  The ABS is an organization that you should consider joining if you haven’t already done so, it is one of the best type clubs available, although I am sure I am biased on that.  An associated organization, BPPP (Bonanza Pilot Proficiency Program) is an excellent resource and can recommend local instructors that are expert in the type.

     

    Up until last year, according to 91.109, you could not receive instruction in an aircraft with a throw over yoke, with the exception of instrument flight instruction.  This was changed and now as long as the instructor meets the new requirements, you may receive instruction in such an aircraft for the purposes of a flight review, to obtain recent flight experience, or for an IPC.  However, you must be able to act as PIC for the entire flight. To act as PIC in the Debonair, you must have a current medical, meet the requirements of 61.56 (flight review) and 61.57 (recent experience), and have the endorsements for complex and high performance (61.31).  If you don’t meet these requirements to act as PIC, then you will have to have a dual yoke installed (they can be rented on a monthly basis) if you intend to accomplish the required training in the Debonair that currently has a throw over yoke to meet these requirements. Of course, you can use other aircraft that have a dual yoke for obtaining currency and meeting the requirements and then get any additional training in your aircraft.

     

    One thing I warn my friends about the Bonanza line, if you are considering buying an airplane, don’t fly in a Bonanza unless you are prepared to buy one, as you will get hooked on it and have to buy one.

     

     

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  5. Bill Trussell on Apr 04, 2012

    To offer another opportunity to critque my original response, I would propose that under the conditions outlined above the owner would be acting as PIC, but would not be able to log the flight as PIC if the pospective owner was logging  the flight as PIC as well.  To do otherwise would technically have to be agreed to in advance as the aircraft and operation only requires one flight crew member.  Only one PIC unless the operation was for instrument instruction or with a safety pilot.
    If it was my aircraft and I was acting as PIC I would assume that I would be logging the flight as PIC.
     

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  6. Jerico James on Apr 04, 2012

    To further add. I was asking the question to clarify something that occured which is a whole other issue.

    It’s one of those things that I knew the answer I just wanted to make sure I was reading it the same.

    Bill, yes all my ratings were granted years ago. I’m actually ATP ME, Comm ASEL, RW, and INST and typed in several aircraft. Most of my time in fixed wing is 2000 + hours in B300 class aircraft.
    I just purchased a Bonanza last week. Not the one I flew but another one. Very happy with the aircraft. I really like Beech products and find the layout and design to be very similar from their pistons to turbines.
     
    Thanks guys.

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  7. Nathan Parker on Apr 04, 2012

    Bill, nothing precludes more than one pilot from logging PIC.  The only regulation that pertains to logging PIC is 61.51(e).  If you make any decision about logging PIC with reference to any other regulation, you’re not thinking about the issue properly.

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  8. Matthew Waugh on Apr 05, 2012

    In an aircraft/operation requiring only one pilot there is no provision for a person ACTING as PIC but not MANIPULATING the controls to log PIC.
     
    So in the general case – if the owner is ACTING as PIC to make the flight legal but the buyer is MANIPULATING the controls the owner may not log PIC under ANY circumstance. Even if the person manipulating the controls is not a pilot, or chooses not to the log the time, the ACTING PIC may not log the time as PIC – period (or there may be an exception, but it’s obscure, and of course assuming the owner doesn’t secretly have a CFI certificate in their pocket 🙂 ).
     
    Now in the specific case – I have not kept up on the regulations regarding throw-over yokes, so I bow out of that discussion…….

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  9. Joe on Apr 10, 2012

    I agree with Mathew as for as the person acting as PIC not being able to log it if he is not the sole manipulator.  The FAR’s treat “acting as pilot in command” and “logging pilot in command time” as completely different concepts. It’s the difference between having final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of a flight (referred to as “acting as PIC”) and writing numbers in columns on a piece of paper at home with a beer in your hand (logging PIC.)

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