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8 Answers

Safety Pilot Qualifications for Owner/Pilot Practice for BFR

Asked by: 7047 views FAA Regulations

Just bought a Cessna 150 after being out of flying for about 3 years, have current medical and need to get a BFR.  Problem is my airplane needs for some work to be done at a nearby field, (vacuum pump replacement).  I would like to have a friend, (who is current in a Cessna 172), fly with me as a safety pilot to take the airplane over for the work.  He's never flown a 150, but I believe that's covered because we're talking about, same catagory/class.  I also believe that we would be legal to do some practice flights, touch and go's etc. to prepare for my BFR.  Also, can we both log PIC time?  I tried to find specifics in the CFR's on the FAA's web site, but it seems I found everthing else but.

Thanks In Advance

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8 Answers



  1. Wes Beard on Jan 18, 2012

    What type of work needs to be done on your airplane?  A vacuum pump.  Check your equipment list and see if the vacuum pump is required equipment.  If it is required equipment then your airplane is not airworthy and no one can take it over to the field to get the repairs.  The only way is to get a ferry permit from the FAA and follow their instructions on the flight.
     
    If your airplane is airworthy, and neither pilot is a CFI only the pilot manipulating the controls can log PIC time.  The other pilot, the safety pilot, must have a current flight review and logged three takeoffs and landings within the preceding 90 days.  Logging of PIC time is covered in 61.51(e) and the recency of experience is covered in 61.57.  You are right the Cessna 150 and Cessna 172 are both airplane (category) single engine land (class).

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  2. John D. Collins on Jan 18, 2012

    You do not meet the requirements of 61.56 for a flight review to act as pilot in command. The friend must meet both 61.56 and 61.57 to conduct the flight with you and must act as pilot in command for the entire flight, as you are a passenger.  The friend must also have a current medical and have at least a private pilot certificate with ratings of airplane, single engine land (category and class).  The friend can log PIC time as long as he is the sole manipulator of the controls 61.51(e)(1)(i).  When you are manipulating the controls, he is still acting as PIC, but may not log that time. An exception to the rule would apply according to 61.51(e)iii): “When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted”. However, this would not apply as more than one pilot is not required under … the regulations under which the flight is conducted.  You used the term “safety pilot”.  This would apply to 91.109(c) where a safety pilot is a required crew member for simulated instrument flight. This does not apply to the description in your post, for example touch and goes, so the friend is not acting as a safety pilot under the regulations, he is acting as the pilot in command.

     

    The FAA has no problem with the flight, but your insurance company may.  In general, insurance companies forbid many things that the FAA does not.  Check what your open pilot clause of your policy says.

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  3. Carl D Legge on Jan 18, 2012

    First of all Thank You Both for taking the time to answer my question’s…Good point about the MEL, however this airplane doesn’t have an MEL, (1964 C150D).  Would one required for an A/C of this vintage, or would it be a “grandfathered” situation.  I do know that requirment was enacted a number of years ago.  70’s or 80’s?
    Re: PIC, So he can log straight time, but not as PIC.  I could log neither, but would benefit from the practice hopefully resulting in minimal BFR checkout time.
    Re: Insurance, My open pilot clause, states 10 hrs in make and model and 300 hrs TT.  However, my agent is trying to work with me on this.
    Thanks Again

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  4. Wes Beard on Jan 18, 2012

    Some more good questions Carl.  The equipment list is not the same thing as the minimum equipment list (MEL).  The equipment list shows a listing of all the equipment that was installed on the airplane when the FAA approved the type design.  It also has optional and additional equipment that can be used on the airplane without having to fill out another form and getting the changes approved by the FAA.  Any required equipment that is not properly working on the aircraft will make the make the aircraft not airworthy.  On the other hand a MEL shows a listing of equipment that can be broken as still be airworthy and should not include any equipment that is required on the equipment list.
     
    For example, a spinner (the nose cone on the front of the propeller) is not required on a Cessna 172 but it is required on a Cessna 182.  The C-182 would not meet its airworthiness standards if the spinner was missing.  The vacuum pump on your C-150 may or may not be required… I don’t know.  Best to talk to your mechanic before you fly it over.
     
    In reference to your other question.  If your friend is not the sole manipulator of the controls they cannot log anything including total time or what you are referring to as straight time.  Only one person can log PIC time at a time and that is determined by who is flying the aircraft.  Your friend though would have the legal responsibility of acting as the pilot in command meaning that if he tells you somthing while you are manipulating the controls you have to listen and follow what he says.  It is his ticket you are flying under and not yours. 

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  5. Carl D Legge on Jan 18, 2012

    Ok, my error, I confused MEL with basic equipment list. I went back into the paperwork for this A/C and lo and behold, I find the original equipment list, specifically for this S/N, with a coding system for required (R), standard (S) and optional (O), equipment. The Gyro Horiz, Dir Gyro and Vacuum system are listed as optional (O). I’ll still consult with my mechanic, but it appears we should be OK to fly it based on that.
    If need be, we can get a ferry permit, got one years ago to move a Piper Cherokee from near Topeka Kansas to Wichita to restore it, (was stored in a pole barn for 10 years). The Fed’s were very helpful with that.
    BTW – Engine and Propeller are listed as (R) required equipment!
    Thanks Again – Very Helpful

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  6. Wes Beard on Jan 18, 2012

    Great Carl!
     
    Before you fly… mark the inoperative heading indicator and attitude indicator as inoperative according to §91.213(d)(3)(ii) 

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  7. Carl D Legge on Jan 18, 2012

    Will do – Thanks

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  8. Matthew Waugh on Jan 21, 2012

    I’m not sure the logging question got cleared up for you. Assuming that you do not intend to practice simulated instrument flight (seems unlikley give the vacuum pump failure) then:
     
    Whoever is manipulating the controls logs PIC – you can log PIC even though you don’t have a BFR. You don’t need to be qualified to ACT as PIC in order to LOG PIC. Now there has to be somebody on the plane qualified to ACTas PIC, and since that’s not you then your friend needs to meet all those qualificiations. However – even though they are ACTING as PIC they may not LOG PIC (unless they are manipulating the controls).
     
    As for insurance – in fairness to your friend you should point out that your insurance and it’s open pilot clause isn’t doing your friend any good whatsoever. If something should happen and things get busted and the insurance pays, they can subrogate to your friend, especially as they were acting as PIC, and claim from your friend the full value of what they paid out. Your insurance protects YOU, open pilot clauses and things still only protect YOU to ensure that YOUR insurance is in force. It doesn’t help out anybody else – they either need their OWN insurance or they must be a “named insured” on your policy (“named insured” is not the same as being “named on the policy” – named on the policy just means they don’t meet the open pilot clause but the insurance company has decided that’s OK for this one person). All I’m saying is – be careful – insurance can be a tricky subject.

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