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33 Answers

Saftey pilot and compensation

Asked by: 19280 views General Aviation

I can't find this specifically in the FARs. At the airport I fly at there is a good amount of people without their Commercial offering their saftey pilot services to people needing work under the hood. They are working towards their commercial and use the flights to build time, however, they won't split the costs. They say they are helping and because they already have their instrument and are flying from the right seat they can log the time and not pay anything. It just doesn't seem right to me. It is my understanding that a Private pilot must pay pro-rata to fly as Pilot in Command. Can someone please clarify the situation for me. Can I get in trouble for the other person not paying pro-rata? There are a lot of people doing this at this FBO should I address it to the FBO owner?.... FAA?

 

****May I add that the saftey pilot IS logging PIC time for the about 90% of the flight that I am under the hood but is paying nothing for that PIC time

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33 Answers



  1. Derek Schwalenberg on Jan 10, 2012

    It is perfectly legal for the PIC to pay the full cost of a flight. It might not be fair, but there is no law that says the safety pilot HAS to pay their pro-rata share. It is only a violation of the law to CHARGE more than a pro-rata share for the flight. So if THEY rent the plane in their nameand you have to pay 100% then maybe you could have an argument but if YOU rent the plane and they just ride for free that is not illegal. If they were smart though they would split the costs because the more you guys work together to fly cheaper the more flying you’ll be able to do and them as well. Remember aviation is a word-of-mouth industry.

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  2. Steven Porter on Jan 10, 2012

    Derek, What about the situation when left seat logs pic as the sole manipulator of controls and right logs pic as acting pic? Should right seat legally be paying >= 50%?

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  3. Anrboy on Jan 10, 2012

    Thank you Steven for helping me clarify. The way I understand FAR61.113 is that a Private Pilot to act as PIC they may pay no less than the pro rata share.

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  4. Derek Schwalenberg on Jan 11, 2012

    Except that logging PIC and who is the official PIC are defined seperately. There is only ONE PIC as far as who is in-charge.
    a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft. (FAR 91.3)
    Which is different from the definitions of LOGGING PIC time that allow for two pilots to log PIC time in a few specific instances, like safety pilot time and instructional time.

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  5. Bill Trussell on Jan 11, 2012

    So it is imporant to note some background from the FAA on the two issues at hand in the question.  First, having asked someone to serve as a safety pilot is adding a required flight crew member to your operation.  That is how the safety pilot is eligible to log any time during these flights.  It is important to note that it is only during that time either when the safety pilot is serving in that capacity while you are “under the hood” or if they are sole manipulator of the controls they are eligible to log any time.
    The FAA many years ago made a provision in the rules for the sharing of costs between the pilot and passengers.  Note that the rule in FAR 61.113 refers to “passengers” and not other pilots per se.  This rule exception was intended to allow pilots to share expenses for the typical trips to the beach and lays the groundwork for what constitues cost sharing (pilot pays no less than pro rata share).  The exception to the rule does not prohibit the pilot from being able to or required to pay the whole cost. 
    The services of a person acting as a safety pilot are exactly that, a service.  If the safety pilot is willing to share the cost of the operation then great!  You can not impose more than half the cost assuming there are only two of you on the trip.  If the person refuses to pay anything, it is your choice as to whether you argree with that arrangement or not.  Again, the provision of the rule is an exception to the “not for compensation or hire” requirement, not a requirement for anyone to pay other than the private pilot responsible for the flight happening in the first place.

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  6. Steven Porter on Jan 11, 2012

    To play devils advocate here, in this gray area. If the safety pilot is the acting PIC, it is easy to argue that the individual is acting PIC for compensation (loggable hours). I have seen precedent for that on this site before, I believe it was a case regarding a skydiving club. The last sentence of 61.113 does not say passengers. ” nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.” It could even be intrepreted that since the left seat pilot is not a passenger per se then the first sentence of 61.113 and 61.113c do not apply and the acting PIC bears all financial burden, aka safety pilot in this scenerio.

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  7. John D. Collins on Jan 11, 2012

    When you are flying under simulated instrument flight conditions, a safety pilot is not a passenger but is a required crew member and can log second in command time.  Generally they can only log that time that simulated instrument flight is being conducted, which normally excludes the taxi, takeoff, landing, and taxi back to the hangar or ramp. The only time they may log PIC is when they are the sole manipulator of the controls. They may not log the entire time as a safety pilot, as they are not a required crew member for the entire flight and are a passenger for the portion of the flight that simulated instrument flight is not taking place, for example during the taxi, takeoff, and landing portion.  This last point prevents a safety pilot from logging any cross country time.

     

    The safety pilot must hold at least a Private Pilot certificate rated for the Category (airplane) and Class (Single Engine Land) of the aircraft. They need a current medical as all who act as a required crew member must have a current medical. They don’t need one time endorsements such as tail wheel, complex, or high performance even if the pilot who is acting as PIC requires one and they don’t have to meet the currency requirements of 61.57 or the flight review requirements of 61.56 because these regulations are requirements only for the pilot who is acting as pilot in command.

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  8. Nathan Parker on Jan 11, 2012

    I have to agree with Steven Porter’s analysis. 61.113(a) prohibits a Private pilot from acting as PIC for compensation, and flight time is compensation.  The section contains exemptions, but this scenario isn’t one of them.  The pilot flying isn’t a passenger and so wouldn’t fall under paragraph c.
    I don’t think that the FAA really has this in mind for the safety pilot, because it would make finding a safety pilot a difficult prospect.  There really needs to be an exemption like in paragraph (g) for tow pilots.
    Derek’s position is mistaken because he assumes that the safety pilot is not the PIC.  This is sometimes the case, but not always.  The safety pilot can elect to be the acting PIC and indeed must do so in order to log PIC time.  Reference 61.51(e)(iii).
     
    If I were the OP, I would send a letter to the general counsel’s office requesting an interpretation.  It takes about 5 months to get a response.

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  9. Bill Trussell on Jan 11, 2012

    This is an age old issue within the FAA and has been discussed at length in the past.  Logging of flight time is not considered compensation so to the degree that is the only thing that makes it attractive to the safety pilot then the FAA is fine with it.  Requiring the safety pilot to pay some portion of the cost of the flight makes little sense and goes counter to the objective of the FAA, that is to have a qualified pilot serve in that position as a required crew member so as to ensure a safe operation.

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  10. Nathan Parker on Jan 11, 2012

    “Logging of flight time is not considered compensation”
     
    Bill, this is not correct.  There are dozens of FAA Letters of Interpretations that say that it is.

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  11. Nathan Parker on Jan 11, 2012

    Flight time as compensation LOI:
     
    http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/1990/Lincoln.pdf
     
    Excerpts:
     
    10/30/90Ms. Judy LincolnDear Ms. Lincoln:
    […]
    the agency has repeatedly taken the position that building up flight time is considered compensatory in nature when the pilot does not have to pay the costs of operating the aircraft and would, therefore, be deemed a form of “compensation” to the private pilot under Section 61.118.
    […]
    In Document No. 6, paragraph 4, Bernard Geier noted that a private pilot may not serve as pilot in command of such an operation [towing gliders] even when he/she elects to forego actual monetary compensation for service as pilot in command since, as stated, the private pilot is rendering his/her services to build (flight) time. This act, within itself, constitutes an operation for gain or advantage, other than for transportation alone. As such, it would be considered an operation for compensation or hire.
     
     

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  12. Bill Trussell on Jan 11, 2012

    The key here is that a safety pilot is NOT acting as Pilot In Command in this case, in spite of the fact that he/she may be eligible to log time as PIC while acting as a safety pilot.  The issue raised by Nathan is true were the pilot to act as PIC and I agree, but the conditions are different when acting as a safety pilot.
    The pilot under the hood is assumed to be acting as PIC in my case as sole manipulator of the controls and thus is subject to the “non-compensation” rules. Nathan correctly points out that there are some situations where the compensation issue would stand, like trading flight time for what would be a commercial operation under the rules vice other “compensation”.
    I still contend, absent any other interpretation of the rules, that the FAA endorses the use of a safety pilot without requiring that pilot to “pay” some portion of the flight time to act in that capacity while still logging flight time.

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  13. Nathan Parker on Jan 11, 2012

    “The key here is that a safety pilot is NOT acting as Pilot In Command in this case, in spite of the fact that he/she may be eligible to log time as PIC while acting as a safety pilot. ”
     
    A safety pilot cannot log the time as PIC unless he is acting as PIC.  I reference again 61.51(e)(iii). 
     
    “I still contend, absent any other interpretation of the rules, that the FAA endorses the use of a safety pilot without requiring that pilot to “pay” some portion of the flight time to act in that capacity while still logging flight time.”
     
    What the FAA endorses isn’t relevant; what matters is the regulation itself.  If the regulation implies an obligation to pay that the FAA didn’t intend, then the FAA needs to amend the regulation.  Still, I’d be interested to know what evidence you have that the FAA doesn’t expect the safety pilot to pay.

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  14. Bill Trussell on Jan 11, 2012

    One safe bet is to have the safety pilot agree to NOT be the PIC for the flight, but merely act as a required flight crew member. In doing so, that person may log the time as SIC and the PIC issue goes away as does the issue of compensation during this time.
    SIC has some specific aircraft certification issues but the rules around the requirement for a Safety pilot allow for the addition of the safety pilot as a required flight crew member during those portions of the flight where the function is necessary.
    In this case the safety pilot receives credit in the total time category but not PIC.
    Obviously this issue still sparks great debates and lots of interpretations.  Maybe I will take a trip down to FAA HQ and ask and see what I hear!!!!! Should be an interesting trip.

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  15. Anrboy on Jan 11, 2012

    Wow, I appreciate the responses. After reading through them all here is what I have determined.
    1. This is a grey area that is not defined specifically in the FARs therefore can be interpreted in many ways
    2. If the saftey pilot wants to log PIC they must act as PIC (61.51) If they want to fly as PIC they cannont be compensated and PIC counts as compensation since there isn’t a specific exception to this for saftey pilots.
    3. If they aren’t to pay anything they CAN still log the time but must do so as SIC, which wouldn’t coun’t towards PIC time for a rating
    It needs to clarified by the FAA needless to say

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  16. Derek Schwalenberg on Jan 11, 2012

    I’m not sure I am fully with you on number 2 as there are separate definitions for acting as PIC and for logging time as PIC. Far as I have understood it the left seat pilot usually logs PIC the entire time because they are always sole manipulator of the controls and the safety pilot can log PIC for the time while the left seat pilot is under the hood because during that time they are responsible for the safety of flight. As far as the final authority of the aircraft though that is probably* the left seat pilot and you should never depart in an aircraft until both of you know and agree on who the PIC is… This is the same reason Flight instructors can log PIC while giving instruction, because they are held responsible for the safety of flight. This doesn’t mean that the Private Pilot at the controls cannot be the pilot-in-command, however.

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  17. Nathan Parker on Jan 11, 2012

    “the safety pilot can log PIC for the time while the left seat pilot is under the hood because during that time they are responsible for the safety of flight. As far as the final authority of the aircraft though that is probably* the left seat pilot”
     
    There is only one kind of “acting PIC” and it must be the safety pilot if he’s going to log PIC time.  You’re trying to define two different kinds of “acting PIC” and there is no basis for it.
     
    “This is the same reason Flight instructors can log PIC while giving instruction, because they are held responsible for the safety of flight. ”
     
    The instructor can log the time as PIC because 61.51(e)(3) says he can.  It doesn’t necessarily imply that he actually IS the acting PIC, although I have a hard time imagining situations in which that isn’t true.

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  18. Bill Trussell on Jan 11, 2012

    So at the risk of beating what appears to be a very dead horse, I am going to volunteer to write the FAA General Counsel’s office and ask for an interpretation of the rules.  While I like Nathan’s analysis of the situation posed I have failed to find an interpretation that matches the case origninally presented.  I have been operating on the assumption that: the safety pilot can log time as PIC because of being a required crew member, while the pilot under the hood qualified for the same time as sole manipulator.  What has us all up in knots is the compensation issue.  Nathan correctly points out that the FAA does have an interpretation that volunteering to fly as PIC for no “cash” compensation has been ruled out by the FAA.  He also correctly points out that the FAA now (after some 30 years on my part) considers flight time as compensation for flying and is illegal under the FARs. The concept of SIC in my mind has always been restricted to those aircraft certified for more than one pilot or those flights operated under any other Part of the FARs execpt Part 91.
    I will post a link to my letter in this thread when it goes out so all can see it.  I also promise to post the response from the FAA when it arrives.

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  19. Nathan Parker on Jan 11, 2012

    “I will post a link to my letter in this thread when it goes out so all can see it.”
     
    Thank you Bill.  I will note, however, that the flight time as compensation has been in place for at least 30 years; the letter I posted was written in 1990 and referred to a pre-existing policy of the FAA.  One of the referenced letters was written in 1982. However, prior to the Internet, I cannot imagine how any pilot would have ever known about such interpretations.

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  20. Steven Porter on Jan 12, 2012

    I really appreciate this Bill. I honestly never thought about the compensation issue for a non-flying PIC before this question was asked. I think its funny how the question was about the safety pilot paying for half, when it looks like the safety pilot might have to pay for all (if the individual is acting PIC).

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  21. Bill Trussell on Jan 12, 2012

    So for those keeping score, yes I do predate the 30 year figure provided by Nathan!
    That said, I have done my thing and transmitted the letter in question to the Office of the General Counsel at FAA HQ.
    Those interested in viewing the “shot heard round the world” on this issue can load up the following in your browswer
    http://www.ifrdevelopment.com/FAA_Gen_Counsel_1_12_12.pdf
    Let’s hope we get a good answer on this one.  To protect the innocent only my name appears in the letter.
    Thanks
    Bill
     

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  22. John D. Collins on Jan 12, 2012

    A pilot may log that time that they are acting as pilot in command as PIC, even if they do not manipulate the controls – 61.55(e)(1)(iii). In the case when the safety pilot holds an instrument rating for the category and class of aircraft and the pilot in the left seat does not, the safety pilot must act as PIC anytime they are conductiing a flight under IFR conditions or rules – 61.3(e).  So, if an IFR flightplan is filed and flown, even if the sky is severe clear, the safety pilot must act as PIC and under those circumstances and may log the time as PIC. A safety pilot is required for simulated instrument flight 91.109(c). References are below.
     
    91.109(c) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless–
     
    (1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.
     
     
    61.3(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
    (1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person’s pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown
     
     
    61.55(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. 
     

    (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

     
    ** ** ** 
    (iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
     
     

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  23. Nathan Parker on Jan 12, 2012

    Steven Porter wrote:
     
    “I really appreciate this Bill. I honestly never thought about the compensation issue for a non-flying PIC before this question was asked.”
     
    Neither had I, and I’ve been hanging out on aviation forums for about 15 years.
     

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  24. Anrboy on Jan 12, 2012

    Thanks a lot Bill for sending to the FAA. I emailed the FAA, before I read you sent to them, and I received a call at 7am today looking for a mailing address to send the interpretation so maybe I’ll recieve it sooner than later. Hopefully we both get similar, if not the same, response back.

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  25. Bill Trussell on Jan 12, 2012

    Excellent!  We can compare notes.

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  26. n on Jan 12, 2012

    You can log safety pilot time (however the only time BOTH of you can log PIC at the same time is when someone is under the hood).
     
     2) SIC time??? really, would love to see the FAAs expression for someone logging SIC time in a 172 lol  You log it PIC
     
    3) If your reaction is to run to the FAA with something that “isn’t right to you”, be careful, this type of attitude does not lend well to getting a job as a pilot, no one wants to hire a snitch.
     ALSO use a little common sense, if these guys have big bucks invested in their quest for their CPL and you are go try to cause them issues with the feds, sounds like a great way to make enemies.

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  27. n on Jan 12, 2012

    Also you can do this VFR with 2 VFR pilots

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  28. Nathan Parker on Jan 12, 2012

    “2) SIC time??? really, would love to see the FAAs expression for someone logging SIC time in a 172 lol  You log it PIC”
     
    Given that it’s the FAA that suggests this as a way of logging the time in numerous LOIs, the FAA is fine with it, something well-known in the aviation community.  The enabling regulation is 61.51(f)(2):
     
    =========================
     
    (f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
     
    (1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft’s type certificate; or
     
    (2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
    =============================
     
    The bolded part above is the relevant part of the regulation.  Since 91.109(c) requires the use of a safety pilot, the safety pilot is a required crewmember under the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

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  29. Wes Beard on Jan 13, 2012

    n,
    Everything that Nathan Parker has stated about how to log this time is correct.  Let me make a point here.  If the safety pilot logs PIC time, they are making a statement in their logbook that they were the acting pilot in command for that flight.  Do this enough times and a trend will develop that everytime you provide safety pilot duties you also take on the responsibility of the pilot in command.  If there is ever an incident or accident where you were the safety pilot… the FAA will hold you responsible due to the logging of the previous flights.  You could argue all you want about how this flight is different from the other flights but if the other pilot says you were the acting pilot in command.  The FAA will believe the other pilot and the mountain of logbook entries you previously made.

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  30. Derek Schwalenberg on Jan 14, 2012

    I can’t wait to the interpretation from the FAA because out of all these other interpretations they can’t ALL match…

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  31. Steven Porter on Feb 29, 2012

    I am curious if there have been any FAA responses yet on this one.

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  32. Bill Trussell on Jul 31, 2012

    After just over six months we finally recevied the letter of interpretation covering this subject. The letter is available here :

    http://www.ifrdevelopment.com/Safety_Pilot_Interpretation_2012.pdf

    The information in the letter supports the notion of a qualified safety pilot logging flight time served as a safety pilot as SIC under certain conditions (page 1 para 6). The letter also supports the notion that the safety pilot is not required to pay a pro rata share of the operating expenses while serving as a safety pilot as he/she does so as a required crew member and not as a passenger. The assumptions used by the FAA in support of their interpretation supports the notion that the FAA does not consider the logging of flight time as a safety pilot as compensation for such services.

    I hope this letter helps address the original question.

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  33. Steven Porter on Aug 10, 2012

    So the moral is, don’t let anyone sit in the back seat if the safety pilot doesn’t want to pay.

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