Rash of students failing flight portion of checkride. Why?

19 Answers

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   Nathan Parker on Dec 29, 2011

   How much flight time do these students have when you sign them off?

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   StudentCFI on Dec 29, 2011

   All of these students were orphan students that I picked up from other CFI’s.  The first to fail had (I can’t believe it, still) nearly 200 hours.  I flew with him for about 15 hours before I signed him off, and quite frankly, he deserved to fail.  He was a busy financial planner that was always late, and canceled often because he couldn’t make it.  Getting him to study was a stuggle.  The second had close to 100 hours, the third had almost 150 hours, and the last was my least, at 60 hours.  The last got sick of the CFI never being available (the CFI also did charters), so he “switched” flight schools to me with 25 hours. 

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   Nathan Parker on Dec 29, 2011

   Well, that wasn’t at all the answer I expected you to give me.  I thought you were going to say “40”, or, heaven forbid, “35”. 
    
   All of those students obviously had ample hours for CFIs to have a reasonable expectation that they had seen and corrected any mistake that was likely to occur.  Let me just throw out some random thoughts.
    
   One thing to consider is that you might have been handed “problem” students; not unusual when the students are gifted to you.  Problem students can still be successful, however, but it often takes intense overtraining.  Another thing to consider is the training frequency.  A student trained to proficiency in slips, for instance, 4 months ago might well draw a blank on a checkride, and kick himself for failing to remember, even though that would be an instructional failure.  Another is nervousness.  With so many hours, the students should feel comfortable in the air, but again, problem students are often that way due to fear.  A number of pre-checkride training flights structured like a checkride is often helpful.  Another possible problem is the “downhill from there” remark.  It holds open the possibility that they might have passed had they not lost their cool over making a mistake.  Making a mistake doesn’t necessarily mean a failed checkride, and it pays to keep in the game until the very end.  It’s a good idea to stress to the student that no one flies a perfect checkride and the examiner doesn’t expect it.
    

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   StudentCFI on Dec 30, 2011

   I see, I might be pushing them too much as well(?)  I feel I was milked by a CFI when I was younger a long time ago, so I made a promise to myself (and students) that I would not milk and do the same, so I push hard to finish the student asap.  Bad for my paycheck, I know, but I also do not want to rip students off. 
   Would you also suggest multiple mock checkrides?  I am almost contiplating skipping the mock checkrides with fellow CFIs and having the students do a mock checkride with the DPE himself.  Would you suggest that?
   Either way, I just want my students to do well.  Not only does it make me look bad as a CFI, but I also feel like I failed. 

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   MaggotCFII on Dec 30, 2011

   What Area of Operation/Task did each of the 4 first have difficulty with on the flight portion of the Practical Test?
    

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   StudentCFI on Dec 30, 2011

   Failed Student 1:  Turned to a heading onto his mock cross-country, than his planned rout, essentially, he was paralleling his route.  Examiner didn’t fail him on this mistake, but it was pretty significant.  Then, on the VOR procedures, this particular examiner put foggles on the student, then makes then do “a decending turn to a specific altitude and heading to intercept the XXX radial INBOUND to a VOR (emphases added since tracking a radial inbound means putting its reciprical in on the CDI)”  student got messed up and the DPE pulled the trigger.  Student admitted he was tired, didn’t get much sleep, and had spent the weekend vacationing even though he should have been studying-which I strongly suggested he study.
   Failed Student 2: Messed up unusual attitude recoveries, and if I remember correctly, was generally sloppy (outside of PTS standards) on multiple manuevers. Also flew below the TPA at his diversion airport, even though afterwards he stated he had no idea why he did it, and knew better.
   Failed Student 3: Learning the lessons from the first two failed students, I payed special attention to VORs and maintaining the TPA.  Student on XC kept focusing on a VOR instead of visual checkpoints, completely forgot about flying the airplane.  He never displayed this behavior on training flights or the mock checkride.   Afterwards, he messed up the VOR thing again and flew below the TPA, twice.  Student later admitted that again, he didn’t know why he did it, and even had AOPA airport printoffs with the TPA highlighted in his lap.  He also admitted that he was tired and had alot of things on his mind (daughter who lives in the UK was in town-hadn’t seen her in months, gearing up for Christmas party that afternoon, etc.)
   Failed Student 4: Forgot flaps on soft field T/O, but realized it after departure.  Examiner didn’t fail him, but certianly wasn’t pretty.  Some confusion in cockpit over checkpoints.  On the diversion, student got flustered (I guess he was trying to figure out where he was at-all the while the examiner was yelling at him saying, “where you at?  where are you going”  why are you looking at the map?”  etc.).  This student was the most imformative, said that in all of his training-everything was methodically done-before turning, look for traffic, traffic scan, taking a breath to think about the manuver before doing anything, GUMPS check, etc.  But he said the examiner made him feel rushed, and would tell him “hurry up, I’m waiting” and “turn right now.” 
   Interestingly enough, my DPEs I have had in the past for my own checkrides would be relatively quiet-let me do whatever I needed to do, whether it was correct or allowing me to screw up. 
    

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   Nathan Parker on Dec 30, 2011

   “so I push hard to finish the student asap.”
    
   To me, the failures seem a result of pulling the students out of the oven before they’re fully baked.  This diagnosis is at odds with the number of hours they have, but even 200 hours might not be much depending on how much time that was spread over and for the particular student in question.
    
   To maximize student quality, I think pushing them to complete quickly is counterproductive.  It creates anxiety on the students part and it leads the instructor to see proficiency where it might not exist. I see instructors interpreting vague answers as correct during oral questioning, and I see them accept flight performances 1) in which they provided continual guidance and 2) in which the students lacked confidence.  None of this, in my view, does the student any favors in the long term.
    
   Mock checkrides with the examiner are certainly helpful in reducing anxiety, but that can be expensive and hard to schedule.  These rides with other instructors can help, too, but I think flights with his own instructor with the flight structured like a checkride (with the instructor not *helping* the student) are about as good and a better use of time and money.

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   John D. Collins on Dec 30, 2011

   I offer a couple of observations.  Different students respond to different learning styles and different instructors.  If you are not able to effective teach a particular student, there is no shame in acknowledging it and get another instructor’s opinion.  Students may want to pressure you into signing them off when in your heart you know they aren’t ready.  A mock checkride where you go thru the entire PTS with them and point out any deficiencies or weak areas of concern will in most cases convince the student they need more practice or training. If they are not ready, but persist in pressuring you to sign them off, it might be time for them to get another instructor.

    

   There are some good lessons to be learned from the failures that you described. Reviewing IMSAFE with a few of these students should have resulted in a cancellation of the checkrides.  Discussing SRM and adopting one of the decision making models would also help. I will have an extended ground session(s) with the student before I am ready to sign them off going over the PTS in detail and making sure they have a good understanding of what is expected of them for the practical exam.

    

   One other consideration is the choice of the DPE.  I would look for a DPE that is not going to yell at my students as this is not an appropriate way of dealing with them on a checkride.  If anything, I would advise the student that they should not be hurried or bullied into doing something they were not comfortable with in the time frame insisted on by a DPE.  On a related point, DPEs are human, at least many of them, and if they see repeated failures from a particular instructor, they will form an low opinion based on their expectation.  This can put the student at a disadvantage.  Over time, DPEs obtain their own reputation and you can talk to other instructors to get a good idea of what to expect and who to avoid.  I want a DPE that to the greatest extent possible makes the applicant feel at ease and doesn’t have a bad reputation for making his or her own criteria.

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   StudentCFI on Dec 30, 2011

   I just talked to my boss, and he said the same thing, that I might be pushing the students too hard. The previous instructors that left seemed to have milked students out, my boss brought that up.  But by me pushing to hard, I might be doing just the opposite.
   Come to think of it, even when telling the students that I don’t want to say anything, they may ask a question or two that I will answer, or “help them out” so to speak.  Sometimes, on ground instruction when I ask a question, and the student doesn’t know, I might “help them out.”  So the gist here is that I got to shut up more, maybe tighten the screws (bombard them and stress them out) and get the student to think on their own (as brutal as it may seem-it helps them out in the long run).
    

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    StudentCFI on Dec 30, 2011

    Mr. Collins,
    While I reckognize this rash of failures as my own failure as a CFI, and do not want to point fingers, this DPE is a little bit controversial (especially the VOR thing, see the reference above).  He has a tendency to complain about his time to examinees and since getting into a check airman/DPE at the area’s only flight academy-seems to have forgotten the other flight schools.  My first student to have failed was also my first student to do his training in a glass cockpit, and on the oral, the DPE told him that glass cockpits were “pussy planes” and that all the examinees he’s ever been with are poor pilots.
    The joke around the area among flight schools is that anyone you send a checkride off with him that passes, his response is always the same, “they barely passed.”  I figured he was tougher and I want to hold my students to the highest regard, so that is why I sent them off to him, but according to my boss and other CFIs, they are fed up and sending students to other DPEs. So after discussing with my boss and fellow CFIs, not only will I change the way I teach, but I may also change the DPE I send my students to.

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    Tom on Dec 30, 2011

    I would have to say, that all students struggle on something on a checkride. This DPE does not seem like someone I would send a PPL checkride. At no point should he be yelling at a student. He is there for the most part to observe. I know one DPE that during an oral portion he saw the student was get frustrated and feeling too much pressure. His response, stop the oral, pack up and took the student to a diner, and finished the oral there, the student did excellent. A good DPE especially for a PPL should know that a PPL is a license to learn!!!
    Now if you felt you rushed these students, but sent them with other instructors, and they said the students were good to go, you have gotta think what the common factors are.

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    Bill Trussell on Dec 30, 2011

    It is important to note that DPEs report to an FAA FSDO office who issued the designation.  I would approach the FSDO office manager and discuss the situation with them.  It is possible that the DPE is just looking to impress the FAA management team with a high failure rate.  I knew of a DPE that did this with instrument students.  He failed 80% of them on the first try.  He was not a bad guy but interpreted the PTS in one way, while the intent may truely be something else.  After speaking with the FSDO management you might have a better idea of where the DPE direction is coming from and thus be better prepared yourself and be in a better position to prepare your students.
    Remember that one of the FAA prime directives to DPEs has always been to evaluate judgement on the part of the applicant rather than just flying mechanics.  Another way to examine whether your students are ready would be to evaluate whether you would trust them with your children flying with them. If the answer is no, then find something fun to do with your students that would provide more opportunity for them to ready themselves for the ultimate task.

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    Jim Foley on Dec 30, 2011

    It appears that most of these answers are from CFIs.  Yes, they were all students too at one time, but I’ll try to give my perspective on what’s going on, as a current student, and nowhere near CFI stage.
    First off, for me, a little pushing is good.  I had one instructor that pushed me too quick, and caused the failure of my private checkride.  (Not pointing fingers, I should have been more firm and said I wasn’t ready)  My current instructor pushes me, not to get lessons or flight check done, but to learn and understand individual items better.
    As long as the student is willing to pay, I highly encourage doing mock checkrides.  I try to get at least 2 prior to my actual checkride.  Even if it’s only a quick 30 minute flight, everything helps.  Part of what this helps me do is get over my nerves.  Since my instructor knows this, every once in a while he gets a differenc instructor to do my normal lesson, but act like it’s a checkride.  He had them just sit there and not say a word, except what manouver to do next.  I was freaked out at first, but doing so has helped me immensly.
    As for the DPE being ‘pushy,’ it can be bad or good.  It’s possible that he is just a jerk, in which case you should contact the FSDO.  My private DPE was pushy, but I was pre-warned that he might be, in order to test my ADM.  Is it possible this is what the DPE in question is doing?  For me, he tried to get me to do an intersection take-off, knowing that I didn’t have enough room.  He ‘justified’ it by saying it would save me time and money and such.  Obviously, I didn’t take it, and he admitted at the end thats what he was trying to do.  He also tried to get me to deviate form ATC instructions, saying that they were just folowing procedure, and that I could legally deviate so save time.  Same outcome.  Like I said, this may be what he’s trying to do.
    From the DPEs comments about the glass cockpits, it makes me lean more towards the ‘hes being a jerk’ side.  It doesn’t matter what his personal opinions are, but simply to adhear to the PTS.  The cheif flight instructor at my flight school was the opposite, he hated round guages, but he was always fair on grading students.  (personally, I think part of it was that he was pushing the glass cockpits just to make more money) 
    My opinion would be to get a different DPE for the next few students, and try to isolate that variable.  Obviously, each student will be different, but you should be able to get input on how other DPEs conduct themselves.

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    Brian on Jan 01, 2012

    “Come to think of it, even when telling the students that I don’t want to say anything, they may ask a question or two that I will answer, or “help them out” so to speak.”

    My college was very well known for being almost annoying in it’s manner of answering our questions. Nearly every question I asked, when first visited or if I was just not thinking and expecting a spoon feeding, was met with “well what do you think” or “why don’t you look that up and tell me about it next time.”  In other words, and especially when trying to simulate checkrides where the student needs to be thinking for themselves, try responding to questions with questions. Make your students think.

    While the above was extraordinarily annoying, I have no doubt it has made me a far better pilot than I would have been using other methods. Namely being fed answers instead of being forced to deduce my own. 

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    David Eberhardt on Jan 02, 2012

    re: “My first student to have failed was also my first student to do his training in a glass cockpit, and on the oral, the DPE told him that glass cockpits were “pussy planes” and …”
     
    An FAA examiner actually said this? That could be one of the most ignorant things I’ve ever heard or read. Sometimes people say stupid things but you can chock it up to bad day or what ever. But a comment like that shows such ignorance and stupidity that I believe he should be investigated. Actually, it’s so stupid and ignorant, he shouldn’t be emplyed by the FAA.
    I haven’t flown any glass cockpits myself. I have been an instructor in two very different aircraft in the AIr Force and currently fly older Piper aircraft. But I have the same respet for the guy the builds his own, relatively simple homebuilt to the guys that fly glass. Learning glass cockpits is a task onto itself.
    Sorry, might be off topic but I couldn’t ignore posting my reaction to that comment.
     

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    Nathan Parker on Jan 02, 2012

    “An FAA examiner actually said this? That could be one of the most ignorant things I’ve ever heard or read.”
     
    The quality of DPEs is highly variable; many of the older ones “good ole boys” who have a somewhat macho attitude towards aviation.  The FAA attempts to standardize their behavior, e.g., the PTS, but examiners are often able to assert their own preferences and opinions in the conduct of checkrides.
     
    Since FAA Inspectors are often pulled from the DPE ranks, it’s easy to develop a culture in many areas of the country that isn’t particularly enlightened.

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    Mike on Jan 05, 2012

    I recently got my PPL but it took two tries. I busted the first time by retracting flaps too quickly during a go around. It was not something I had done before with my CFI and the DPE was absolutely correct to bust me. I learned a lot from the experience (granted this is easy to say now that I have the ticket!).
    I have two suggestions.
    First, make a list of everything you have heard a DPE ever ask on a PPL checkride and make sure that your student can both (1) orally describe how they would perform the task and (2) actually perform it in an airplane. Once you have a list you can change things a little (e.g. okay, he has asked about intercepting a radial inbiund – now I will ask him to describe it/fly it outbound. There are a lot of ways to think about the non-specific requirements in the PTS, so the more of this the better.
    Second, play around with scenarios on the ground. Here’s an example of how this typically works: you ask your student what he would do during a crappy approach on final. He says “go around.” That is NOT the correct answer, unless there is some magic “safely go around” button in his trainer. Your follow up should be “okay, how?” His answer should be something about full power, carb heat cold, flap retraction at airspeed and altitude (depending on initial configuration), etc. A similar example would be with unuaual attitudes – you see this on the attidude indicator, what do you do, and in what order? Why? Or applied to VOR’s, “you are here and want to go here. What do you do? what frequency, what’s the indication, what does it mean if you see this on the CDI, etc?”
    I guess what I am saying with the ground portion is that it possible to at least talk through the what and why of what you do if something goes wrong, because something will on the checkride. It also demonstrates ADM, which DPEs seem to love.

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    Robert on Feb 01, 2012

    From my experience, if a DPE starts failing your students consistently, it’s time for a new DPE.  I had a DPE and he threatened to fail students for ridicluous issues when the checkride otherwise had been excellent (ie. not knowing the formula for converting Fahrenheit to Celcius).  I guess I got on his bad side, but that behavior continued for some time.  But the DPE takes the checkrides and uses them to punish the instructor, rather than look at students’ abilities objectively.  You may already know this, but there are a significant number a A____les in this line of work.

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    David Eberhardt on Feb 01, 2012

    I have read some very interesting posts here. I am working on getting my CFI this year sometime and have learned here that relationships with the DPEs / Examiners need to be “managed” with care. Something I had not thought much about prior to this thread.
     
    Back in 1981, I took my first check ride for my Private. As the examiner followed me into the Cherokee 140, I looked over and could not see the trim wheel cause he was so fat, he spilled over toward my seat. The trim wheel was on the floor in this plane (some 140’s have ceiling mounted trim handle). I don’t think I was very tactful, but I suggested that I was gonna have a hard time trimming! I was quite worried that I would fail for highlighting the issue and possibly embarassing him …
     
    Somehow, I passed – thank goodness! Apparently, he had a healthy self respect …(and appetite).

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