Who can give SIC checkout in a Cessna Mustang.

7 Answers

1. 
   

   
   

   Kris Kortokrax on Nov 18, 2011

   What do you mean by “SIC checkout”?
   If you mean issue an SIC type rating allowing a pilot to serve as an SIC in international operations, then that SIC type rating is issued by the FAA after you show compliance with 61.55(d).
   If you are talking about a 135.293 competency check allowing the person to fly as SIC in 135 air carrier operations, that check can be conducted by an FAA inspector or a check airman.
   If you are inquiring about who may provide the training, that is spelled out in 61.55(d)(1).

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2. 
   

   
   

   Wes Beard on Nov 18, 2011

   Dukuh,
    
   You ask an interesting question.  From what I gather you are asking if a commercial / ATP pilot who has a CE-510S type rating and no CFI certificiate can give an SIC checkout.  The answer is NO and YES. (Usually an “S” at the end of the type rating indicates single pilot privileges… there is also a CE-510 type rating)
    
   The regulations under §61.55(b) don’t require an authorized instructor on board but the question remains on how you log “pilot time” in a type rated airplane that is type certificated for one pilot as the Cessna Mustang is.
    
   The definition of pilot time is defined in §61.1 as (1) a required crew member or (2) receiving training from an authorized instructor.  Since the aircraft does not require two pilots you cannot log the time you fly with him under Part 91.  In the same manner, since he is not an authorized instructor he cannot give you dual instruction in the airplane.  In this regard, he cannot give you a SIC checkout.
    
   It is true under 61.55(g), if the aircraft is configured and the maintenance logs show the airplane unable to comply with the single pilot operator equipment (i.e. autopilot is inoperative) that a SIC is required.  Under that situation, your type rated (CE-510S) pilot can fly with you while you comply with §61.55(b) and log the time as SIC.
    
   In simpler terms, if the aircraft and pilot are certificated for single pilot operations a non-CFI cannot give an SIC checkout and you cannot log the time anyway under Part 91.  An SIC is not required for any flight.  It will be good experience but not loggable for recency and additional certificate and ratings.
    
   If either the pilot or aircraft require another crewmember then they can give you the SIC checkout and you can log all the time with them as SIC.
    
   The ground training required by §61.55(b)(1) does not require an instructor though it would be wise to seek someone out that can explain the aircraft systems to you as well as the quirks in the aircraft checklists.
    
   I hope this helps.

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3. 
   

   
   

   Kris Kortokrax on Nov 18, 2011

   Take a look at page 4 & 5 of the Flight Standardization Board report for the Mustang (CE-510) at this link:
   http://fsims.avs.faa.gov/fsims/fsims.nsf/pubs/F7F39366B186EBD78625778B005F6D4F?opendocument
   It states: “Holders of a CE-510S pilot type rating may conduct single pilot operations or utilize a second in command.”  It gives the pilot the choice of how he wants to operate, unless the single-pilot equipment requirements are not met.  In that case, he may only operate with an SIC.
   Couple that with the wording in 61.55 (f)(3) which states that you don’t need the training from 61.55(b) while designated as SIC for the purpose of receiving that training.
   In this case you would be a required crewmember (there to perform the tasks required by 61.55(b)(2)) and could log SIC time.
   If you seek corroboration, I suggest you contact the FAA personnel at the phone number on the front page of the FSB report.

   +3 Votes 4 Votes  1 Votes

4. 
   

   
   

   Wes Beard on Nov 18, 2011

   Kris,
    
   Thanks for the link to the FSB report.  I am sure you read the next sentence in the FSB report but for those that haven’t notice the wording “that are required to utilize an SIC”
   The CE-510S pilot type rating is awarded to pilots who successfully pass the practicalexamination as a single pilot. Holders of a CE-510S pilot type rating may conduct singlepilot operations or utilize a second in command. Holders of the CE-510S pilot typerating that are required to utilize an SIC due to the fact that an SIC is required by thelack of equipment specified to be installed and operable by the AFM Limitations (i.e.,Autopilot being inoperative) must also be qualified in accordance with 14 CFR section61.58 requirements.
    
   We all agree §61.51 is the reference for logging pilot time.  Three times in that regulation it references a type cerftificate for the airplane making the TCDS regulatory by reference.  This is what it states for the Mustang:
    
   Crew for all Flights (See note 5 for cockpit equipment/arrangement restrictions):One pilot (in the left pilot seat) plus additional equipment as specified in the Kinds ofOperations Equipment List (KOEL) contained in the Limitations Section of the FAA ApprovedAirplane Flight Manual.
    
   It all goes back to logging pilot time which is being (1) a required crewmember or (2) given instruction from an authorized instructor.  Unfortunately, the PIC cannot choose to have a SIC and then they become required.  The SIC is either required by the regulation or they are not required.  See the Nichols Interpretation for more information.
    
   http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/Nichols.pdf

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5. 
   

   
   

   Kris Kortokrax on Nov 22, 2011

   The preamble to the 61.55 rule change states:
    
    
    
    
    
    

   The SIC pilot type rating applicant must receive the familiarization training under

    

   § 61.55(b) from a qualified pilot in command [See § 61.31(a)] or an authorized flight instructor who holds the aircraft type rating on his/her pilot certificate [See § 61.31(a) and § 61.195(b)]. The ground training under § 61.55(b)(1) may be given by an authorized advanced ground instructor [See § 61.215(b)], authorized flight instructor, or qualified pilot in command. The person who provided the training (the trainer) must sign the applicant’ s logbook or training record after each lesson in accordance with § 61.51(h)(2).
   If I am going to act as SIC, I am required to receive the training.  If I elect to do the training in the airplane, I am required to be in the airplane.  As I will be assigned to perform duty in an aircraft during flight time (receive training), I am a crewmember per 14 CFR 1.1.  This would make me a required crewmember receiving training from the qualified PIC who can log the training under 61.51(h)(2) as stated above.  This would resolve the issue with logging SIC time raised in the Nichols interp.  I would be logging training time, not SIC time.
    
   Reference the wording in the FSB report, the first sentence stands alone.  It allows the PIC to decide how he will operate.  The second sentence sets up a requirement for an SIC if required equipment is inoperative.  It does not qualify the first sentence.
    
   Look at page 5 of the FSB report for the CE-525 on fsims.faa.gov.  It contains the wording allowing the PIC to choose to operate with or without an SIC.  It, however, does not contain the wording of the second sentence requiring an SIC in the case of inoperative equipment, although that requirement would still exist.
    
   Just a comment on Nichols.  Start opinion.  For that interpretation to have been issued by an organization whose stated goal is safety is ludicrous.  That the FAA would try to deny a PIC the opportunity to avial himself of the safety benefits of a second set of eyes, ears and hands in the cockpit of a turbojet airplane is unbelievable.  End opinion.

   +2 Votes 3 Votes  1 Votes

6. 
   

   
   

   Wes Beard on Nov 22, 2011

   Kris,
    
   I believe our conversation is going down two different roads with each one of us on a different thought process so I would like to try to clarify what I understand you telling me and then clarify what I am saying.
    
   From what I understand… you are saying that no matter if both the pilot and aircraft are capable of flying single pilot… the pilot can choose to either operate with an SIC or without an SIC.  This SIC can log both SIC time for those flights whether they are training or not.  You then mention, the qualified PIC can give dual instruction (training time) and sign the logbook in a single pilot jet aircraft like the Cessna Mustang as well as a multi-crew jet airplane.  Is this correct?
    
   What I am saying is there are two separate issues here that need to be worked out.  I completely agee with what you stated for a multi-crew airplane.  The qualified PIC can give the required training under §61.55 and sign the logbook of the SIC pilot as stated in the regulation.  My reasoning for this because the SIC can log the SIC time per §61.51 and the “pilot time” rule in §61.55
    
   In a single-pilot aircraft that can be interchangeable like the Cessna Mustang is either the pilot or the airplane must require a SIC for a qualified PIC to give the training and sign off the SIC training under §61.55.  If the pilot only has a CE-525 type and not a CE-525S type that would mean the pilot is required to have an SIC on board.  If the Kinds of Operation List  has equipment that is inoperative (with appropriate maintenance records) the aircraft would also require two pilots.  In a single-pilot mission, the SIC is not a required crew member and cannot log SIC time.  It’s interesting about the training time and I didn’t think of it from that angle.  After reading the definition of what training time and authorized instructor means  I feel this interpretation to be correct and it also aligns itself with the Nichols Interpretation.  Is this what you understood from me?
    
   I think the FSB iincluded that statement in the FSB report to indicate the CE-525S rated wasn’t precluded from flying Mustangs that required two pilots. I don’t think it specifically authorized them to choose to operate single or multi-pilot.
    
   I also agree with what you stated about the Nichols interpretation.  Safety is dimished without a second pilot on board the aircraft and why the FAA would allow it is beyond the scope of this discussion.  In any event, it is quite an interesting conversation

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7. 
   

   
   

   Kris Kortokrax on Nov 25, 2011

   “From what I understand… you are saying that no matter if both the pilot and aircraft are capable of flying single pilot… the pilot can choose to either operate with an SIC or without an SIC.  This SIC can log both SIC time for those flights whether they are training or not.  You then mention, the qualified PIC can give dual instruction (training time) and sign the logbook in a single pilot jet aircraft like the Cessna Mustang as well as a multi-crew jet airplane.  Is this correct?”
    
   I’m not saying the pilot has a choice, the FSB report states that.  I also did not state that the SIC can log time for non-training flights, I referred to 61.55(b)(2) and explicitly stated “In this case”.
    
   The 510S rated pilot is a qualified PIC per 61.31 (a) as outlined in the preamble and can provide the training.
    
   I implore you to call the number on the front of the FSB report and ask the people who wrote the report what they meant.  It serves no useful purpose for us to offer and debate our understandings as neither of us is in a position to set policy.  If you are hesitant to call the FSB and would accept my word concerning the answer, I would be happy to call them and report their answer concerning the options available to the holder of a 510S or 525S type rating.

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