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5 Answers

Cross country logging/safety pilot logging

Asked by: 4247 views FAA Regulations, Flight Instructor, General Aviation, Student Pilot

I have been going through my logbook checking for mistakes. I have two questions regarding similar scenarios. 

I went to ATP flight school. After getting instrument certified, we fly with another student on instrument flights. One student under hood while other student is safety pilot.

#1. Before doing that, I had training flights where instructor makes sure we are proficient enough to do both of those roles. The flight is simulating me being the safety pilot. The flight is >50 nm, I log dual received, my instructor is at the controls (but is not under foggles). Therefore, I do not log pilot in command. I also did not conduct the landing. My question is can I log cross country flight time if I did not take the landing? I am aware that a safety pilot may not log cross country flight time but I am wondering in the scenario of this training flight. 

#2. During my safety pilot flights (with another student) where we switch off being pilot flying versus safety pilot each flight. If I am the safety pilot, I am aware I only log pilot in command time during the time the pilot flying is under the hood. My question is in regard to total flight time. In my logbook, I would log the total flight time as the total on the hobbs. Then I would log PIC as the time the pilot flying was under the hood. Am I able to log the flight time as the time of the entire flight or only the time during which I was PIC? From the definitions below it seems like I would only be able to log total duration of flight using the time I was acting as the safety pilot since I am not a required pilot flight crew member for the beginning and end of flight (when other pilot is not under the hood).

61.1 Pilot Time... time in which a person (i) serves as a required pilot flight crew member, (ii) NA, 

1.1 Flight time... Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for purpose of flight and ends when aircraft comes to rest after landing

 

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5 Answers

  1. Best Answer


    Jeff Baum on Apr 12, 2023

    You might want to reread the FARs on the different types of flight time.

    1) Did you handle the controls as the sole manipulator? It appears to be “No” as you state that the CFI was “at the controls”. Were you acting as a Safety Pilot? Again, you state that the CFI was not using foggles, so, “No” you did not acts a Safety Pilot. Did you make the takeoff, fly enroute and make the landing? Once again, “No”.

    Since you were not the “Sole Manipulator”, you cannot log the time as PIC, the CFI flew and manipulated the controls so was PIC. Since the CFI was not simulating instrument flight with a vision restricting device, you did not act as a Safety Pilot, so you cannot log any Safety Pilot time for that flight. And, since you didn’t make the takeoff, fly enroute and make the landing, you cannot log cross country time. Basically you went for an airplane ride (which is alway fun).

    2) Yes, you may log flight time while acting as a Safety Pilot. Yes, you may log PIC while acting as a Safety Pilot IF you and the other pilot agreed prior to the flight that you would be ACTING as PIC during that portion of the flight. If you and the other pilot did not make that agreement and the other pilot continued to ACT as PIC, then you may log the time as SIC. Either way, you would only log the time while the other pilot was using foggles conducting simulated instrument flight and you were acting as a Safety Pilot, not for the entire flight. Once the other pilot is not using foggles, there is no requirement for a Safety Pilot. Also, you would not be able to log cross country or instrument time, instrument approaches, takeoffs or landings as you didn’t do those, the other pilot did.

    Here’s a suggestion for future checkrides, whether you log your Safety Pilot time as PIC or SIC add “Safety Pilot” in the comment for that fight. Makes it easier for the DPE when they review your logbook.

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  2. Daniel Bland on Apr 12, 2023

    #1 Jeff, I understand all of that. However, the flight was dual given. I was receiving instruction. Would that allow cross country to be logged?

    What if in a new scenario I was PIC on a dual received cross country flight but my instructor landed again. Would that be logged as cross country or not?

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  3. Mark Kolber on Apr 12, 2023

    The FAA has been very clear that the pilot who conducts the entire flight, takeoff, enroute, and landing, my log cross country toward certificates and ratings,

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  4. Mark Kolber on Apr 12, 2023

    2009 Hilliard letter:

    “In interpreting whether a safety pilot could log cross-country time, the FAA stated that § 61.65(d) contemplates that only the pilot conducting the entire flight, including takeoff, landing, and en route flight, as a required flight crewmember may log cross-country time.”

    Hilliard wasn’t a safety pilot situation. It was two pilots trading off the controls mid-leg. Neither was allowed to log cross country time.

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  5. Jeff Baum on Apr 12, 2023

    Daniel,

    Mark has referenced one of the major FAA General Counsel interpretations on logging time.

    Just because the flight is “Dual Received” and was from KABC to KXYZ does not change the requirements to being able to LOG the cross country time. When you were a student pilot (excuse me, learner pilot) and you flew a dual cross country, the CFI had you make the takeoff, fly enroute and land. If you hadn’t, you would not be able to log that as cross country time.

    Your question/situation has been asked of the FAA many times and always the same answer is given. For part 91 flights, a cross country is flown by an individual pilot who makes the takeoff, flies enroute and makes the landing. If another pilot makes the takeoff, flies the enroute portion or the landing then no-one may log cross country time. (There are a couple of exemptions for 121 and other situations, but they won’t apply to your situation).

    In your latest scenario,You are with a CFI who is providing instruction. I’m assuming that you hold a certificate (ie Private Airplane SEL), If you takeoff, fly enroute and the CFI decides to make the landing, no, you may not log cross country time. You may log PIC time for the time which you were the sole manipulator of the controls.

    As an example, I flew with a pilot who wished to get some experience of flying into a major Class B airport. He conducted the takeoff, flew enroute, but when we approached KDEN he asked that I make the landing so that he could just observe. So, we flew a 300+ NM cross country. He made the takeoff, flew down and I flew the last 10 minutes then made the landing, Yes, he got to log PIC for the time he flew. He got to log the flight as Dual Received. But since he didn’t make the landing he didn’t log cross country time.

    IF you takeoff, fly enroute and land. THEN the CFI takes off again, flies and lands. Yes, you could log cross country time for the point to point flight. If you are properly rated to be PIC in the airplane you may log that as PIC and Dual Received. You could also log dual received for the CFI’s time if they are providing instruction, but you couldn’t log that as PIC.

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