Mistake on certificate application

12 Answers

1. 
   

   
   

   KDS on Sep 04, 2022

   Contact Airman Registry and ask them how to correct the data. Here are their contact points:

   https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/contact_airmen_certification

   You can try by phone, but as I recall, the wait can be extreme. However, they do have an email address contact point as well.

   You can never be sure what will happen in the future, so I would suggest setting the record straight now.

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2. 
   

   
   

   Kris Kortokrax on Sep 04, 2022

   Another reason to correct the record is that, if you were to lose your logbook, you can request a copy of your most recent 8710-1 form to reconstruct your logbook.

   You would want your hours to be correct in that case.

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3. 
   

   
   

   Russ Roslewski on Sep 07, 2022

   While I respect KDS and Kris’s opinions based on their inputs on this board and others, I can’t really agree on this one.

   You passed the checkride, and presumably have the certificate. I don’t think there’s any real benefit to correcting a mere clerical error on the application form. Are there actually any consequences to leaving it the way it is? I can’t really think of any. If there are actually consequences I don’t know of, I’ll reconsider my opinion.

   If somebody at the FAA were to notice, during some kind of audit or similar, AND want to investigate, you could refer to your logbook for the correct values. But I can’t see any benefit to pointing it out proactively. It was obviously an inadvertent typo (that the DPE should have noticed, though).

   I never thought of the 8710-1 form as a very useful backup for a lost logbook. It doesn’t track most of the things we need to track in a logbook anyway (currency, endorsements, types of aircraft, etc.). So it’s a lousy backup – instead, you should be either using an online, backed up logbook OR at the least, making copies or taking pictures of your paper logbook as a backup. Far, far more useful than the 8710-1. And more current.

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4. 
   

   
   

   KDS on Sep 07, 2022

   Russ,

   As I wrote in my comment, “You can never be sure what will happen in the future”. It’s better to set things straight than to assume they won’t matter, particularly if there is no expense involved in correcting the record.

   KDS

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5. 
   

   
   

   Russ Roslewski on Sep 07, 2022

   KDS, for every wise saying there is an opposite, but equally wise saying… 🙂

   Like “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” or “don’t open that can of worms” or “let sleeping dogs lie”.

   For this one, I’d be more worried about the “can of worms”. For instance, the CFI and the DPE should have caught this error on the form. If the error is corrected after the fact, will they have to re-sign it? They probably should have to, since you’re changing what they signed. But then how does that process work, re-signing a form for a checkride that already happened? Will this cause any red flags at the FSDO or other problems for them? If the form wasn’t correct, does that cause any problem with the checkride being considered valid?

   Or maybe it actually is just a simple call to the IACRA office, they update it and nothing else happens – I don’t know, I haven’t ever seen this situation but would be interested to know how it actually works.

   I just don’t see any advantage to fixing it at this point, but a whole list of “what happens” questions if I did try to fix it.

   Kris, I know you worked at the FSDO for a while. What’s your take?

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6. 
   

   
   

   Kris Kortokrax on Sep 08, 2022

   Ever read the bottom of the 8710-1 declaration above the signature?

   “I certify that all statements and answers provided by me on this application form are complete and true to the best of my knowledge and I agree that they are to be considered as part of the basis for issuance of any FAA certificate to me.”

   Then read 61.59(a)(2).

   “No person may make or cause to be made: Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or used to show compliance with any requirement for the issuance or exercise of the privileges of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part”

   I know you could make the case that the error was not fraudulent or intentionally false.

   However, consider the people who have lost their certificates because of unintentional mistakes on the 8500-8, FAA Application for Medical Certificate.

   The fact that the pilot is asking about the error here, shows that he is aware of the mistake, so leaving it in place is no longer an unintentional act.

   It only costs a phone call to Airman Records to ask. They will probably want to correct the mistake. Making the correction will not affect his ability to use the certificate he received.

   OKC is interested in the record being correct. I have seen records returned because the DPE missed the fact that an applicant had gotten US citizenship since the last application and checked the USA box. DPEs cannot process a citizenship change. They have also been returned for errors in birthday. Had one returned because the applicant put “General Delivery” as an address. In the beginning, all the returns came through the office. Now they are resolved between the DPE and IACRA / OKC.

   There is no penalty involved with correcting a mistake on the form.

   I agree about the usefulness of the 8710-1 in reconstructing a logbook, but I have seen instances where it was used, because there was no other record. Mostly by people who had flown 20 years ago and lost their logbook.

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7. 
   

   
   

   KDS on Sep 09, 2022

   Not to overlook the point Kris made about reconstructing lost logbooks, this is AOPA’s easy to read information on the subject:

   https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2000/january/02/lost-logbooks

   Over the years, I’ve encountered at least two-dozen airmen who lost logbooks. Sometimes the reasons were at colorful as an angry ex-wife took them, a house fire, or a flood, but most of them were just lost. To my surprise, I somehow lost one of my logbooks too. I went to the bookcase a couple years ago with the intent of looking up then name of someone who was in an old logbook, and that one logbook was just gone and has never resurfaced. At this stage of life, none of that mattered except that I never found the name I could not remember, but for someone else it could be a disaster.

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8. 
   

   
   

   Russ Roslewski on Sep 09, 2022

   I’ll accept that I may be incorrect about the importance or difficulty of correcting the application form – but for use as a backup to a logbook, I just can’t see it any more.

   The AOPA article was written 22 years ago. A lot has changed. The 8710 form wasn’t a great backup to a logbook even back then, but now in 2022 there are so many much better ways that are easier, more accurate, and more useful.

   Back in 2000, making a backup of your logbook consisted of pretty much one realistic technique – take it to work or Kinko’s and make copies of each page. Some of us did it, but it was a hassle and we usually got well behind.

   Now, though? At the most basic, just take pictures with your phone. You could backup decades of flying in just a few minutes and it is far superior and more useful than the 8710 form.

   Similarly, I’ve seen people advocate for filling out an 8710 for a flight review or IPC, saying that the benefit to the pilot is in case they lose their logbook. To me, there are so many better ways that this isn’t even an actual benefit. If you’re concerned about losing your logbook, and you should be, you need to have an actual, useful backup, even if it’s just taking pictures of each page. Not just a list of your total times. What about currency, endorsements, make/model times, flight reviews, etc?

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   KDS on Sep 10, 2022

   While it is true that there are many great ways to backup a logbook, that doesn’t negate the fact an 8710-1 can be used to substantiate missing records. It is also the only record I am aware of that has the airman’s signature on a legal document certifying it is a true record, then another signature from an examiner, and maintained by the federal government.

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    KDS on Sep 12, 2022

    Pilot.22,

    I just remembered a couple experiences that may weigh into your thinking.

    The first one was an inspector who was well aware there was out and out fraud being perpetrated by a DPE. The DPE was caught and lost all of his airman certificates. The case was well documented. Then, about 25 years later, the inspector encountered an airman who had a false 8710-1 in his records because of the DPE’s activities. The inspector wanted to help the airman get his record straight. He contacted Airman Registry and they said the only way they would change the records was by court order. The inspector tried to get the FAA lawyers to assist but was unsuccessful.

    The second one was an inspector who was in a flying club unassociated with his employment. One of the members of the club was killed in a non-aviation accident. The inspector had previous experience with widows receiving mail from the government for their long dead husbands because they were never dropped from mailing lists. This could be a painful reminder of their loss. He attempted to prevent that problem by telling them the airman was deceased and asking them to remove him from future mailings. Airman Registry said they would only do that with a copy of the death certificate.

    The last story comes from many years ago when I was transitioning from one house to another. I got the smallest post office box the post office had in the process. I would come by once in a while and check the mail and it would be packed full of commercial aviation advertisements. Because the box was so small, I wanted to cut that off. I wrote to the FAA and asked them to take me off of the mailing list. I did not receive a reply and nothing changed. Many years after that I made a request for my airman records. As I went through them, I was surprised to see my hand-written note in the file.

    Putting those three memories together, I would say the following. It is almost certain they will not change anything based on something other than a legal document. It is also possible they would include a letter from you in your file explaining what happened and what the error was. If you decide to go that course, I recommend calling Airman Registry first and discuss the subject with them.

    KDS

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11. 
    

    
    

    Kris Kortokrax on Sep 12, 2022

    In your first case, OKC would not change the record because it had been requested by an inspector. What the inspector should have done was to contact the pilot and have him get involved in changing the record. That is the reason for the court order request. For OKC to change the info without involvement from the airman.

    Same thing in case two. An inspector was trying to effect a change of the airman’s record. Without a death certificate, how are they to know that the airman is really dead? The names of FSDO inspectors are published on the FAA’s website. What would prevent someone from using one of those names and calling OKC, telling them that the airman is dead? Say an irate ex wife or ex husband? Hence, the need for legal backup.

    In your third case, the problem is probably that the FAA does not maintain a mailing list. They merely make available the contents of their database. There is a statement on the FAA website that they are required by law to make airman certificate information available to the public. The correct action would have been to opt out of having your address shown on the database. This can be done over the Internet.

    The best course is still to contact OKC and ask how to go about correcting the information.

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12. 
    

    
    

    KDS on Sep 13, 2022

    Kris,

    My comment was to give a basis example for a conclusion. I already understood everything you wrote.

    In the first case, it would not have made a difference if the airman were involved or not. It took a court order. I also long ago had the FAA restrict my mailing address from their publicly accessible database that can be found at:

    https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airmeninquiry/

    The surprising fact was that they included my hand-written note in the file.

    KDS

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