Picking up after oral failure?

13 Answers

1. 
   

   
   

   Kris Kortokrax on Apr 25, 2022

   I’m assuming for this discussion that the test was for a Private Airplane Single Engine Land.
   You say a few months have passed. I take that to mean, more than 2.

   61.39(a)(6) requires an endorsement, issued within 2 calendar months preceding the month of the test, to take the practical test.

   61.109(a)(4) requires 3 hours of instruction in preparation for the practical test within 2 calendar months preceding the month of the test.

   That language (2 months preceding the means that if the test were scheduled for tomorrow, April 26th, the endorsement would need to have been given sometime on or after February 1, 2022.

   61.43(f) deals with credit for tasks previously completed. It allows a 60 day window after the date of the test. (not 2 calendar months preceding the month of the test). I thought they were going to adjust this language to match 61.39, but apparently that has not happened. That would mean that if your friend is scheduled for the test tomorrow, April 26th, the test would need to have occurred on or after February 25th, 2022. The regulation talks in terms of discontinuance, but in 61.43(f)(2), it mentions both the notice of disapproval and the letter of discontinuance, so I take that to mean that it applies to both.

   I retired from the FAA November 30th, 2021. I gave many practical tests during my 15 years with them. Nowhere in the ACS or PTS is there any mention of an “open book” test. When making the appointment for the test, I always made it clear that if the applicant needed to refer to the regulations to clarify the wording, that was fine. (I don’t have them committed to memory either). I also allowed CFI applicants to refer to AC 61-65 for the correct wording of endorsements. I allowed referencing the legend on a Sectional chart to look up markings. Also allowed was reference to the POH for aircraft performance and W&B data.

   For things like the difference between true north and magnetic north or VFR weather minima or certificate durations or the differences between airspace classes or aeromedical conditons, etc, I would not allow referencing any book.

   I always explained that it was a knowledge test, not a reading test. The main thing is, I always made this clear before the applicant showed up. Any good flight instructor would also prepare his student ahead of time. If he hasn’t, then how could he make any endorsement stating the student is prepared for the test?

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2. 
   

   
   

   Bryan on Apr 25, 2022

   The regulation is 61-43(f):

   (f) If a practical test is discontinued, the applicant is entitled credit for those areas of operation that were passed, but only if the applicant:

   (1) Passes the remainder of the practical test within the 60-day period after the date the practical test was discontinued;

   (2) Presents to the examiner for the retest the original notice of disapproval form or the letter of discontinuance form, as appropriate;

   (3) Satisfactorily accomplishes any additional training needed and obtains the appropriate instructor endorsements, if additional training is required; and

   (4) Presents to the examiner for the retest a properly completed and signed application.

   Your friend should also look at the notice of disapproval because it explains this. In the middle section of the form, it will explain what parts of the checkride were completed and what still needs to be done. Then, toward the bottom, it will have a big “AFTER” with a space for the DPE to write/type a date, then the template continues, “, YOU MUST REPEAT THE ENTIRE TEST.”

   If it was “several months ago,” that your friend failed the oral, your friend must do the entire checkride again.

   As for the open book question, you are allowed to use anything printed by the FAA. But if a candidate has to look up every single answer, the DPE would have a hard time signing off on that pilot being knowledgeable and proficient. If you get stuck and have to look up 2-3 things and you know right where to look, no DPE would have a problem. If you don’t know where to look or have to look up more than that, a DPE will correctly assess that you do not have the required knowledge for the certificate.

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3. 
   

   
   

   stillkicking on Apr 25, 2022

   The initial check ride was 1/23/22. I looked it up in my texts from the student.

   I assume this means a start over from the beginning, correct?

   As to the “open book” I guess I meant what Bryan was getting at.

   “…you are allowed to use anything printed by the FAA.”

   This DPE did not allow that. Nothing at all.

   So, back to my initial question…. Can the DPE say “no books period and should that have been explained BEFORE the test”?

   Thanks again.

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4. 
   

   
   

   stillkicking on Apr 25, 2022

   The initial check ride was 1/23/22. I looked it up in my texts from the student. The re-test is still not even scheduled and will not be until May at this point.

   I assume this means a start over from the beginning, correct?

   As to the \”open book\” I guess I meant what Bryan was getting at.

   \”…you are allowed to use anything printed by the FAA.\”

   This DPE did not allow that. Nothing at all.

   So, back to my initial question…. Can the DPE say \”no books period and should that have been explained BEFORE the test\”?

   Thanks again.

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5. 
   

   
   

   Kris Kortokrax on Apr 25, 2022

   Nowhere is there any indication that an applicant may use “anything printed by the FAA”.

   The aircraft POH is not printed by the FAA, but I would allow its use.

   The Airplane Flying Handbook and Pilot’s Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge are printed by the FAA, but I would not allow their use to explain things like which instruments are vacuum/pressure, electrical, pitot/static or gyro powered.

   I did allow CFI applicants to use their lesson plans to present a lesson on a given subject.

   If the DPE does not make it clear beforehand, a prudent instructor/applicant should ask before showing up, what might be allowed.

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6. 
   

   
   

   stillkicking on Apr 25, 2022

   According to this student’s CFI, the student is not being held to the 60 day rule and can retest at any time and not have to begin the oral over. Only complete the remaining few oral test items prior to the failure, then go take the flight portion.

   As I stated, it has been over 90 days and counting since the initial check ride.

   When I asked how that was possible the reply from the CFI was “I spoke with the FAA”.

   Did not know this was allowed, but apparently it is.

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7. 
   

   
   

   Kris Kortokrax on Apr 25, 2022

   61.43(f) is clear. Neither I nor any inspector I know would authorize a DPE to operate contrary to the rule.

   I would ask the CFI for the name of the FAA inspector with whom he spoke. Many times people believe that when they are talking to the DPE, that they are speaking with the FAA. The DPE is not part of the FAA. He is a representative of the FAA and does not have the ability to make policy. Neither does an FAA Inspector.

   If the DPE is making a unilateral decision to operate contrary to the regulation, he is creating a situation where, if the FAA becomes aware of it, may require retesting all of the applicants he has tested.

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8. 
   

   
   

   stillkicking on Apr 25, 2022

   It’s not my place to seek out names.

   I’m only concerned for this student. It is not the DPE that is giving out this information but someone from what I assume is the local FAA office.

   I would think the online form would not even accept input if the dates were out of whack but I guess we shall see when this is all said and done.

   I just hope the student does lose the license after all the time and money spend to earn it.

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9. 
   

   
   

   Kris Kortokrax on Apr 25, 2022

   The tasks that are performed, are not entered into IACRA. Only the time spent on the ground portion and the time spent on the flight portion.

   I’m hoping you meant to say that you hope the student does not lose his certificate after all the time and money.

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10. 
    

    
    

    KDS on Apr 25, 2022

    Those are all interesting answers, but a more pertinent point is “Does it matter?” The applicant is either capable of passing a test or not. If in retraining the applicant an instructor finds that they are deficient in an area they already passed, they would be remiss in not training the person up to an acceptable level. After all, the whole idea is for person to be a safe and competent pilot.

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11. 
    

    
    

    Kris Kortokrax on Apr 25, 2022

    Does it matter if the applicant thinks that the ground portion of the test is open book? Yes.

    Does it matter that the applicant might think he can pick up where he left off after 90 days have passed since he failed the ground portion? Yes.

    Does it matter that the DPE (or Inspector) thinks that in spite of 61.43(f) that he can ignore the directive to do the whole test over again? Yes.

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12. 
    

    
    

    KDS on Apr 26, 2022

    Kris, you missed the point, which is that anyone who is presented for a test should be qualified and capable of passing the whole test.

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13. 
    

    
    

    Kris Kortokrax on Apr 26, 2022

    I didn’t miss the point.

    That was the point I made in my first post when I said that :

    “Any good flight instructor would also prepare his student ahead of time. If he hasn’t, then how could he make any endorsement stating the student is prepared for the test?”

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