CFI Tag Team

8 Answers

1. 
   

   
   

   Max Trescott on Aug 24, 2020

   If I understand your question, you’re asking is it proper or ethical for a student pilot to have accumulated 80 hours of instruction and 1) still have no license and 2) have no clear indication when he/she will have one.

   To your first question, it’s not at all uncommon for someone in their sixties to take more than 80 hours to complete a Private, especially if they live in a metro area with complex airspace that requires you fly some distance to where you can practice. It’s not also unusual for someone to have two flight instructors, though in those situations I’d suggest that one be designated the primary instructor and give the bulk of the instruction.

   As to your second question, yes it would be improper for someone to not have some indication of how far along they are in the process of getting their Private certificate. Instructors should make it clear as to what remains to be done, and to what standards a student pilot is expected to perform. When that’s clear to a student, they can easily critique themselves and know whether or not they’re meeting the standards. I believe in most cases where an instructor has not provided this kind of feedback, it’s a failure on the part of the instructor. In some rare cases, an instructor might purposely keep a student in the dark about their progress and continue to fly with them just to make more money. That of course would be unethical.

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2. 
   

   
   

   Russ Roslewski on Aug 25, 2020

   The big, “pilot mill” schools change instructors all the time – sometimes every lesson is with a different instructor. And regardless of what you or I may think of these schools, they certainly are successful in preparing pilots for checkrides. HOWEVER, doing this requires all instructors to use the same syllabus, make copious notes on progress and strengths/weaknesses, etc., and basically be operating under a standardized curriculum.

   I’m willing to bet your friend does not have that.

   As Max said, when doing this in a less formal manner, he really needs to have one CFI be his primary – most of his flying should be with that CFI. The other CFI can be used occasionally, when the first is unavailable, or to get a second opinion on trouble areas. But flying with a different one almost every lesson is not going to work unless the CFIs are very thorough and communicating with each other – on the “same sheet of music” as it were – which is seemingly not the case if it’s not working out.

   When I’ve been that “second CFI”, my first call after a lesson is to the primary CFI to tell him what we did, how it went, problem areas, what I suggest the work on next time, etc.

   Is it “improper” for the CFIs have him bounce back and forth? Not in and of itself.

   Are they being “unethical” and stringing him along so they can make more money? I see nothing to indicate that in your post. As we age, it does take longer to learn things. I taught a student pilot in his 60’s once, it took about 100 hours. We had several heart-to-hearts but he wanted to keep pushing, and eventually made it!

   He may be a nice guy, but he needs to have a direct, purposeful chat with his primary instructor about where he is in training and what he needs to do to finish. The CFI should be using a syllabus, if he is not, then there is a problem right there, but that would give him an idea of where he’s at.

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3. 
   

   
   

   stillkicking on Aug 25, 2020

   In the beginning, the first CFI had a syllabus. One of the bought versions. I had him for a bit and he used to flip though it before we went up. Never wrote anything down before or after the flight so no way he would remember what we did.

   Since then my understanding is he nor the second CFI refers to it prior to the days lesson and there in, as you say, lies the issue. My friend is repeating the same things over and over.

   I finally got my friend to make an Excel spreadsheet of his entire log book so it is easy to read. I told him to color code some of the things he is repeating so it stands out. He gave that to the second CFI and told her he wants her to give him back a list of what he needs to complete his training.

   He is waiting on that list… but I’m not holding my breath.

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4. 
   

   
   

   Russ Roslewski on Aug 25, 2020

   In order to be signed off to take the checkride, you essentially need two things:

   1. Meet the aeronautical experience and training requirements, such as number of night hours, XC hours, hood work, etc.
   2. Be able to perform all the maneuvers in the ACS safely and consistently within standards.

   So as far as what your friend needs, he can determine most of it himself. What he can’t determine, necessarily, is the best way to get there. That’s the CFI’s job.

   He can easily go into 61.109a and look up the requirements for hours of training and night and all that. Compare to what he has, that will tell him what he needs.

   He can then go through the ACS and look at each item and honestly self-assess (this is the hard part, to honestly assess yourself). All the standards are there, both for knowledge and flying. Can he consistently maintain +/- 100 feet, +/- 10 knots and +/- 5 degrees of bank during a steep turn? Can he do slow flight within (almost) the same requirements? Can he land at or within 200 feet beyond a designated point on the runway? Same question for turns about a point, hood work, stalls, etc.

   HOW you get to proficiency in these areas is where the CFI comes in. But the lack of a syllabus is a big issue. Either it’s time to have a real heart-to-heart chat with the CFI, or time to find a new one.

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5. 
   

   
   

   Richard Eastman on Aug 26, 2020

   There is a factor is this discussion that is being overlooked. The “process” aspects of multi-instructors seems to be dealt with fairly accurately — it’s not uncommon to have more than one flight instructor; it’s better to use a syllabus but not uncommon to use it with older students because, as noted, older students often find it more difficult to adapt to the “learning pace” of most syllabus programs. And while implied, but not stated openly — most independent flight instructors are not in the “time building” or “money-gain” mode, but teach because they like to teach.

   The two factors not addressed above … which actually apply to virtually all of us (we humans at least) … are the “core-value sets” that motivate us to our actions (sometimes call Emotional Motivators, Temperament, or Type if you want to research it on Internet).

   In summary, there are four dominant core-value sets — which I will refer to as Logistical, Tactical, Strategic, and Facilitating (each PhD has a different set of names for these value-sets … but they all break down to pretty much the same drivers.).

   The fact that the first CFI derived a “reason” to guide your friend to the second CFI may have been the first CFI’s own recognition that he was not effectively communicating with your friend; very often the result of a conflict in core-value sets. CFI#1 may have been hoping that CFI#2 would be more effective in communicating with your friend.

   Flying, as advocated by the FAA via its suggested flight instruction programs, its regulations and rules, and its testing criteria … is highly logistical (structured). If your friend has a core-value set that does not easily assimilate the FAA’s logistical approach to learning … your friend may struggle. This would be particularly true if your friend’s approach to life is facilitating (i.e. enabling others and expecting to be enabled by others)!

   The second element that your friend may likely need to address are habits. When one is first learning to fly, flying requires conscious awareness of his/her actions. But as we learn each step in the process of physically flying an airplane, the somewhat repetitive nature of flying becomes habit.

   By the time we’ve reached sixty years of age, we have established a great many “habits” (which is how the mind deals with the repetition of things we encounter on a daily basis … be it how we study, how we learn, how we drive a car … or fly an airplane). Sometimes, first-learned or other “keystone” habits conflict with the new habits we must acquire in learning to fly. Unlearning habits (or what you know for sure to be true) … to learn a new habit is the hardest part of new learning! The older we get, the harder it is to let-go of what has worked for us before to acquire a new level of learning. And, unfortunately, habits are so unconscious that it is sometimes hard to recognize that an old habit is the problem.

   These thoughts come from an 81 year old CFIIMEI … whose has come face-to-face with these issues in 55 years of flight instructing.

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6. 
   

   
   

   Richard Eastman on Aug 26, 2020

   There is a factor is this discussion that is being overlooked. The \”process\” aspects of multi-instructors seems to be dealt with fairly accurately — it\’s not uncommon to have more than one flight instructor; it\’s better to use a syllabus but not uncommon to use it with older students because, as noted, older students often find it more difficult to adapt to the \”learning pace\” of most syllabus programs. And while implied, but not stated openly — most independent flight instructors are not in the \”time building\” or \”money-gain\” mode, but teach because they like to teach.

   The two factors not addressed above … which actually apply to virtually all of us (we humans at least) … are the \”core-value sets\” that motivate us to our actions (sometimes call Emotional Motivators, Temperament, or Type if you want to research it on Internet).

   In summary, there are four dominant core-value sets — which I will refer to as Logistical, Tactical, Strategic, and Facilitating (each PhD has a different set of names for these value-sets … but they all break down to pretty much the same drivers.).

   The fact that the first CFI derived a \”reason\” to guide your friend to the second CFI may have been the first CFI\’s own recognition that he was not effectively communicating with your friend; very often the result of a conflict in core-value sets. CFI#1 may have been hoping that CFI#2 would be more effective in communicating with your friend.

   Flying, as advocated by the FAA via its suggested flight instruction programs, its regulations and rules, and its testing criteria … is highly logistical (structured). If your friend has a core-value set that does not easily assimilate the FAA\’s logistical approach to learning … your friend may struggle. This would be particularly true if your friend\’s approach to life is facilitating (i.e. enabling others and expecting to be enabled by others)!

   The second element that your friend may likely need to address are habits. When one is first learning to fly, flying requires conscious awareness of his/her actions. But as we learn each step in the process of physically flying an airplane, the somewhat repetitive nature of flying becomes habit.

   By the time we\’ve reached sixty years of age, we have established a great many \”habits\” (which is how the mind deals with the repetition of things we encounter on a daily basis … be it how we study, how we learn, how we drive a car … or fly an airplane). Sometimes, first-learned or other \”keystone\” habits conflict with the new habits we must acquire in learning to fly. Unlearning habits (or what you know for sure to be true) … to learn a new habit is the hardest part of new learning! The older we get, the harder it is to let-go of what has worked for us before to acquire a new level of learning. And, unfortunately, habits are so unconscious that it is sometimes hard to recognize that an old habit is the problem.

   These thoughts come from an 81 year old CFIIMEI … whose has come face-to-face with these issues in 55 years of flight instructing.

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7. 
   

   
   

   stillkicking on Aug 28, 2020

   Richard, there is one more possibility you may not have considered, here.

   These two CFI’s may be incompetent.

   As you well know, just because someone turns 60 they do not automatically go senile. My friend is a graduate engineer with a major American aerospace firm. His daily decisions can affect the lives or thousands of people. I think he can handle the rigors of flying a single engine airplane.

   One of the things the first CFI told him he still needs to master is “spin-ups”. Not spins, he did that, spin-ups. I cannot seem to find that in my 2019 edition of the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook or in my Jeppesen Private Pilot Manual.

   I’m sure you folks can tell me what this is… if you would please?

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8. 
   

   
   

   AV8R on Sep 01, 2020

   stillkicking,

   The Private Pilot ACS says nothing about spin-ups.

   As a CFI, CFII, MEI, and AGI. I have never heard a flight instructor tell his Private Pilot student that he needs to do spin-ups. Up till now, I had not even heard the word. If I understand you correctly you said he has done spins? That is not even required in the Private Pilot ACS.

   I am not condemning the CFIs that are doing spins with a Private Pilot student. I have done power off 180s, a Commercial Maneuver with Private Pilots. But I have never required that maneuver in order for me to sign them off. If your friend’s CFI wants to teach spins to your friend thats fine. But your friend does NOT have to show proficiency in spins in order to receive the sign off for his Private Pilot practical test.

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