Problems with landings

10 Answers

1. 
   

   
   

   awair on Jun 18, 2020

   Change instructors? Even just for a couple of sessions.
   This is a common issue, which should be easily resolved by any instructor.
   It could be that they are “not telling you”, or that “you are not hearing what has been told”.
   A different set of eyes and ears may be enough to fix the problem.

   I had a really sharp student, but despite explaining in different ways, could not get the flare right. He was obviously not looking in the right place (distraction).

   Solution: a session of night circuits (not part of the Private syllabus in the UK). With the lack of visual details, the student was more readily able to judge the changing aspect of the runway in the flare. By the end of the session, he had perfected the night landing technique.

   Next day, he completed his first solo.

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2. 
   

   
   

   xiotee on Jun 18, 2020

   @awair I can’t change instructor because of the policies and regulations I am binded with from the flight school. I actually already did my night flights where I did my landings quite a bit okay. I got back to the flying in the day time and I was having problems.

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3. 
   

   
   

   Mark Kolber on Jun 18, 2020

   It is really difficult to advise without seeing you fly, so this is a shot in the dark based on what I\’ve seen with others. I generally see two things, either alone or in combination with loss of altitude on final. If this sounds like it might help, share it with your instructor.

   One is, there is a tendency for pilots, even experienced ones, to unconsciously start bringing the nose up on short final long before they should. It seems counter-intuitive that bringing the nose up makes you lose altitude but it is not. I\’m sure you\’ve done slow flight at this point. That\’s a regimen in which you need more power to maintain altitude as you bring the nose up to slow down. If y leave power as is, as you slow down, you will go down. The same thing happens at short final airspeed – it is slow flight! One unconsciously brings the nose up. The airplane slows (maybe just a little), angle of attack grows, and altitude drops.

   The second is about sight picture. I don\’t think it\’s emphasized enough. I won\’t solo a student until the student has landed with the instruments covered – solely by sight picture. And to me, the single best place to create it is on base. Base is where I find most pilots are able to actually \”see\” their path to the runway, both horizontally and vertically. That\’s the path you want to create to the runway. That may help with that turn to final.

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4. 
   

   
   

   xiotee on Jun 18, 2020

   @Mark Kolber Thanks for the advice.

   On the first answer, if I may ask, if you are low, do you continue to pitch down and just add power? I think I may have been mixing things up. What I usually do is when I am low on final, I add power and pitch up a bit to maintain the 60kts approach speed. My instructor told me that there may be reduction of lift when entering the airport vicinity since there may be a change in conditions such as downdrafts/updrafts which is causing me to sink.

   On the second answer, I really want to know the sight picture but I think there is no other way to get it but just doing it over and over again. I checked the PHAK and other resources such as Youtube but I can’t seem to get what I am looking for.

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5. 
   

   
   

   Richard Eastman on Jun 18, 2020

   As noted … very difficult to help without seeing you fly.

   That said … In Cessna 150’s and 172’s … I teach power-off landings initially. Only after the student has mastered the power-off landing … do I add powered approaches (and 1500 RPM is a correct power setting for an extended approach with power).

   For starters, go to <> and download the .pdf. It discusses pitch and power settings in general .

   It is important to remember (1) pitch controls airspeed and (2) power controls descent. As you sight over the top of the cowling … the “target” (i.e. “the numbers” if I read what your instructor has taught you correctly) should “sit” just above the cowling. Your attitude should be basically level… no more than 2.5-degrees below the horizon on the artificial horizon at 10 or 20 degrees of flaps … and it should be roughly 5-degrees nose down with 30 and/or 40 degrees of flaps.

   Since you’ve been taught 1500 rpm … use that for starters. Just be sure you make a fairly long approach. Instead of turning base at 45-degrees from the runway, extend out another 5 seconds while maintaining your pattern altitude!

   As you turn base, reduce your power to 1500 rpm (not before) and let the nose settle to 1 1/2-degrees below the HSI. If you are flying with a glass panel, that’s roughly half way to the 2 1/2-degree line. If you’re flying with a six-pack HSI display, let the simulated airplane wing drop so that it is just below the horizon line (i.e. almost touching it).

   DON’T let the nose drop below 2 1/2-degrees as you turn final. You should be very close to having the “target” (numbers, in this case) sitting on the top of your cowling IF your attitude is pitched to that bracketed area of 1 to 2 1/2-degrees nose down. As an aside, don’t focus on the HSI .. glance at it and then make sure you know what that looks like as you look over the cowling!!!

   Hold that attitude (pitch). If the “target” (numbers) creep down or start to disappear from under the cowling … EASE YOUR POWER BACK 100 RPM … no more than 200 RPM. Maintain your level pitch attitude. By reducing power and maintaining pitch, the plane will sink and the “target” (numbers) will reappear.

   If the “target” (numbers) creep up or away from the front of the cowling as you maintain that 1 to 2 1/2-degree pitch attitude, you’re getting low. ADD 100 RPM while maintaining that constant pitch attitude — and the airplane will stop descending too fast … may even maintain the same altitude for a little bit.

   When the “target” (numbers) are back in place where you see them just on top of the cowling … add or delete 1/2 of the power setting you made as noted above.

   If you let the nose down too far (i.e. below 2 1/2-nose down on the HSI unless you have added 30 or 40-degrees of flaps), you will pick up speed. If you pull the nose up to “force” the “target” to sit on the cowl, you will slow the airplane down. Neither are good!

   Maintain that 1 to 2 1/2-degree pitch attitude throughout the landing approach … and use 100 to 200 RPM power adjustments to make altitude corrections!

   Pitch is airspeed — Power is altitude!

   When you get within 10 to 15 feet of the runway, ease the nose into the nose-level attitude and the “target” should pass below you. At this point, execute your flare by bringing the cowling of the airplane up to the point that it just barely blocks the end of the runway (or the far horizon). DO NOT let the cowling go higher. This results in a 5 to 7 1/2-degree nose up pitch — WHICH IS THE ATTITUDE that you want for a full stall landing.

   Depending on the speed of the airplane when you start this part of the maneuver, it may take very little pull-back on the elevator if you’re going fast — or quite a bit of pull-back on the elevator if you’re going slow. If you’re going fast, then as you slow down, you will need to pull faster and faster TO KEEP THE NOSE of the COWLING aligned with the far end of the runway or the horizon!

   If you pull too much, you will pitch the nose of the cowl ABOVE that end-runway/horizon line … which will either slow the airplane immediately into a stall (for however high you are above the runway) or, if you have too much airspeed, you will balloon! After you passed over the “target” (numbers) — the NEW “target” becomes that end-of-runway/horizon line.

   If you do NOT get the nose up fast enough to align with the end-of-runway/horizon line … you will NOT stop your descent rate. And the result will be a bounced landing! How high a bounce will depend on your airspeed … the faster your airspeed when you bounce, the higher the bounce.

   This maneuver will work in all Cessna and Piper training aircraft if executed correctly.

   If you opt to add 30 to 40-degrees of flaps, you will need to pitch the nose down to roughly 5-degrees nose down pitch to maintain an appropriate approach speed. If you pitch down more than 5-degrees nose-down, you will pick up excessive speed and when you round-out to level the airplane just prior to the flare, you will balloon. The drag of the 30/40-degree flaps at the 5-degree nose-down pitch will give you the correct airspeed for a full flap approach.

   My suggestion is that you focus on doing these landings initially without going to full flaps even if it means over-shooting the “target” (numbers) …and assuming the runway is long enough! As you fly these pitch and power settings … particularly the pitch setting — you will see the “sight picture” that you want … and what you instructor wants!

   The key is maintaining a steady pitch attitude and using power to control your altitude!

   My contact information is on the .pdf that I referenced above. Feel free e-mail to contact me if you have any questions — or to have your flight instructor send me an e-mail. Be sure to reference this “Ask a CFI on Twitter” message.

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6. 
   

   
   

   xiotee on Jun 19, 2020

   @Richard Eastman That’s a lot to digest. Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge, sir. I’ll try to apply this the next time I fly. The links and URLs seem to be not working. I was checking stuff out and I guess the pdf that you are referring to are in your website on the eastmangroupcom under the Pilot Techniques. I am just not sure which document you are referring to. Thank you very much for the help and I appreciate it very much. I’ll contact you incase I have questions.

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7. 
   

   
   

   Mark Kolber on Jun 19, 2020

   >> On the first answer, if I may ask, if you are low, do you continue to pitch down and just add power? I think I may have been mixing things up. What I usually do is when I am low on final, I add power and pitch up a bit to maintain the 60kts approach speed.

   Again, this is for discussion with your CFI.

   You are correct in your other comment that learning the sight picture comes with practice. That’s also part of the answer to this question. Once you know what final is supposed to look like, *maintain* that pitch attitude through your additions and reductions of power. In most training aircraft, the addition of power is going to produce an initial pitch up moment, so you are actually going to pressure the yoke forward to maintain the target attitude which will maintain the target airspeed.

   But you may be surprised to find you already know the sight picture. It happens faster than one thinks.

   It’s funny how we learn this stuff. In my case it wasn’t until after I became a CFI. I was on vacation and getting checked out for the first in a new-to-me make and model. The third time around the pattern, the instructor pulled out his newspaper and covered the panel. “This should be interesting,” I said. On very short final just before the beginning of the round out, he pulled the paper away. Airspeed exactly on target. I’m not that good. And I had only seen two prior landings.

   I have incorporated it into my training. I ask pilots if they have ever done it when I give a flight review. If not, I cover at least the airspeed indicator. They almost always look at me like I’m crazy. And they are always on target +/- 5. That’s also true for presolo student pilots I’ve done it with.

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8. 
   

   
   

   xiotee on Jun 19, 2020

   @Mark Kolber Based on what I understand is that you keep the pitch attitude the same regardless if you add power or reduce power. I just want to get better which is frustrating as of the moment since I don’t know what to do to get good at it. I guess just do it over and over again until it hits you.

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9. 
   

   
   

   Mark Kolber on Jun 20, 2020

   It is all about practice. But what makes it difficult is that we are also retraining ourselves to see. When your instructor demonstrates a pattern and landing, it probably looks so smooth, so on target, but also like he is doing very little. But a large part of that is that he sees deviations earlier so it takes so much less to correct them. If the aircraft nose rises 1/8 inch, the experienced pilot notices and corrects that 1/8 inch. It might move a inch or more before a student even notices it’s not right, and needs more than that nice ir two to correct it.

   We learn something similar when we learn to drive. But here it’s three dimensions and we haven’t been learning the “sight picture” since we were infants.

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10. 
    

    
    

    Warren Webb Jr on Aug 25, 2020

    There’s no reason for this to be taking so long. If the technique is explained and demonstrated correctly, you should be getting good results immediately. For instance, when I used to do intro flights (.5 on the hobbs), I would set up a straight-in final so I could do a quick explanation and demonstration of how to descend to a stabilized aiming point. Then I would have the prospective student continue descent control and with just a little coaching, it would always work fine. This is at the end of a 30 minute intro flight. And the rate of descent is controlled with the elevator, not the power. Anyone can check that for themselves – pg 8-3 Airplane Flying Handbook, Approaches and Landings – “After aligning the airplane with the runway centerline, the final flap setting is completed and the pitch attitude adjusted as required for the desired rate of descent.” https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/airplane_handbook/media/10_afh_ch8.pdf. I might add to help hopefully that technically, the aiming point doesn’t stay on one exact spot on the windshield because it is necessary to make pitch adjustments for updrafts and downdrafts. But when a pitch adjustment is made, the aiming point does appear to continue to move straight toward the pilot’s face confirming the airplane’s line of flight is still toward the aiming point. So look to visualize that as well as a pretty stable (but not 100% fixed) position on the windshield.

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