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12 Answers

Logging Flight Instruction

Asked by: 5128 views Flight Instructor

If you are a Military Pilot Commercially Licensed and Type Rated in a UH60/S70 Pilot-in-Command who is current, qualified in category, class, and type, and are a Current Certified Flight Instructor Helicopter Pilot . Is there anything saying in FARs that I couldn't log my UH60 time as flight instruction time anytime I fly with a copilot who is receiving training to make Pilot-in-Command in my civilian logbook?

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12 Answers



  1. vaflyer on Jul 14, 2019

    Well, I would ask why would you? You apparently are not filling the position as an IP or your would be logging the time as an instructor. You are logging PC so what is the problem? The FARs require a CFI to sign the logbook whenever they provide instruction (61.189(a)), are you signing their logbook? Does your CDR know you are logging CFI time when you are not in the official capacity of an IP? Do you really want instructor time in your logbook when you were not serving in that capacity? As a pilot who had a CFI prior to entering the Army and then served for 30 years, I’m pretty disappointed.

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  2. yakfisher on Jul 14, 2019

    I’m a UT I don’t see why I couldn’t. All I do is instruct in the cockpit and much more than in civilian word. Nothing in the FARs say anything and what about people logging PIC on the controls when they aren’t signed for the aircraft?

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  3. Kris Kortokrax on Jul 14, 2019

    I would say you have two sets of regulations to look at.

    First, your military regulations. What do they say about it? (I have no idea).

    Second, the FAA regulations.

    61.51 deals with logging time. I see nothing in 61.51 that even mentions logging time spent giving instruction. There are no requirements for flight instruction given except for those hours required to serve as a chief instructor or assistant chief instructor under Part 141.

    61.51(e)(3) allows a person to log PIC time while acting as an authorized instructor.
    61.1(b) defines “authorized instructor”. That definitions does not include military instructors.

    If you cannot log PIC time while giving military instruction, it would stand to reason that you could not log training given.

    These are my thoughts. If you really want an answer, you’ll have to request a legal interpretation from the FAA Office of Legal Counsel.

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  4. KDS on Jul 14, 2019

    I’m reminded of an old cartoon where the kid is sitting in the corner for punishment and he says “Nobody said I couldn’t flush my socks down the toilet”.

    No matter how much someone wants to flush their socks down the toilet, the fact nobody has yet told them not do do it doesn’t make it a good idea.

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  5. yakfisher on Jul 14, 2019

    I’ve called the FSDO and they said there was nothing wrong with it since I’m current in category class and type and current PC who is signing off PC Checklist items for future pilots being recommended to becoming PCs. I’ve talked to Army Instructor Pilots who have said there is nothing written anywhere that says you can’t. I’m just trying to see if anyone can find anything written in black and white that says otherwise. That’s our prtimary job as instructors and I’ve given more quality instruction in military than I’ve ever gave in civilian world so just wanting to know if I can log this. . If anyone can find anything please let me know. Thanks again for your help!

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  6. Kris Kortokrax on Jul 15, 2019

    I referred you to the FAA regulations. I also suggested that you ask for an interpretation from the Office of Legal Counsel.

    Please know that the local FSDO personnel are not authorized to issue interpretations of regulations. They are not attorneys and have received no training in either writing or interpreting regulations. They are people like you and me who are hired to perform the job and possess no special insight into regulations.

    Likewise, your fellow Army instructors are likely not authorized by the Army to interpret military regulations. I suggest you pursue an interpretation of those regulations from someone authorized to do so.

    Rereading your original post and the answers, I get the sense that you are not acting in the capacity of a military instructor. If true, then I’m sure the military is not recording your time as instruction given.

    Neither your FAA Flight Instructor certificate nor mine, authorizes us to give flight instruction to a military pilot in military operations. 61.193 lists the training you are authorized to give using your instructor certificate. Nowhere does it state that you may give training to military pilots.

    What makes you believe that you may log training that you are not authorized to provide?

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  7. yakfisher on Jul 15, 2019

    Because as a Military signed PC you are the primary trainer of the company and that’s all I do is train new pilots. I have to sign off on their PC progression and recommend them for PC. Being a CFI I don’t see why I can’t log this as instruction because that is literally all we do daily.

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  8. Kris Kortokrax on Jul 15, 2019

    Are you designated as an Instructor Pilot by the military?
    Does the military record “Training given” time in your record?
    Does the military record “Training received” in the records of the pilots you fly with?

    Would you be logging “Dual given” in an FAA logbook for the pilots you fly with?
    61.189(a) requires that you sign the logbook of any person to whom you have given flight instruction.
    61.51(h) requires that any training be logged and must be endorsed by the authorized instructor.

    You want to record time in an FAA logbook (not a military log).
    As I stated earlier, 61.193 does not allow you to use your FAA instructor certificate to provide instruction to military pilots.

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  9. yakfisher on Jul 15, 2019

    61.193 does not say anything about NOT being able to instruct military pilots. Find something in \”Black and White\” that says I cannot log instruction if I\’m rated in category class and type and current Military pilot who\’s a CFI providing instruction and instructional knowledge.

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  10. Kris Kortokrax on Jul 15, 2019

    The fact that you chose not to answer any of the questions I posed, says a lot.

    61.193 also does not say that you cannot provide instruction in a Part 135 or Part 121 Air Carrier operation, but you cannot, without qualification under those regulations.

    61.193 does not say that you cannot provide instruction at a Part 142 training center, but you cannot, without meeting the requirements of Part 142.

    61.193 does not say that you cannot provide instruction at a Part 141 flight school, but you cannot, without meeting the requirements of Part 141.

    If there were no proscription concerning teaching military pilots, then I should be able to come onto the base and provide instruction to military pilots. I doubt that military command would allow that.

    I suggested that you request a legal interpretation. I doubt you will do so, because of the possibility that they would dare disagree with you.

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  11. yakfisher on Jul 15, 2019

    I’m not being argumentative here so if I’m coming across that way my apologies. I’ve been short on time writing these responses due to being at work. Yeah I agree the best way to get a legitimate answer is to write the FAA. It’s different because I’m qualified in that aircraft as a CFI and not someone just off the streets. I’m qualified to give training and sign off and recommend a future PC in training. It’s a tough one since it’s not written anywhere and it would be for civilian logbook only. But if you find anything between now and then please let me know

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  12. KDS on Jul 15, 2019

    I’ll have to agree with Kris. Calling the FSDO has the legal equivalence of doing nothing. The same logic applies to the IRS. There are certainly many cases that have validated that principle. In fact, I remember a case where a FSDO manager called the legal people at region and was told that practical tests could not be given in Pipers that did not have brakes on the right side. Following that advice, he upset everyone’s apple cart with that as a policy. Later, the Office of the Chief Counsel provided an opposite opinion and as you’re probably aware, Pipers are used for tests.

    If something said at that level can be invalidated, you can rest assured that a telephone call with an inspector who may or may not have even been a GA operations inspector isn’t going to carry much weight.

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