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8 Answers

IMC Lost Comms- What altitude do you fly??

Asked by: 6754 views Flight Instructor, Instrument Rating

I recently got asked this question and believed it to be very simple at first glance however when I started hearing all of the different answers I was getting, I figured I would throw this question up and see if anyone else had an explanation as to how to handle this scenario:

You take off out of El Cajon, California (KSEE) (my home airport) to do the VOR-A approach at Oceanside, California (KOKB).  Ceilings are 500' Overcast.  You are using the SoCal Tower Enroute Control (TEC) for your flight so you didn't file a flight plan.  Your clearance states "upon departure, turn right heading 320 vectors to the Oceanside VOR, climb/maintain 3000', expect 4,000' in 10 minutes".  You take off, turn right, and BAM! Lost comms.  After trouble shooting, nothing happens.  What altitude do you fly?????

This seemed relatively easy to me because you would just run though the Lost Comms, Altitude Checklist (FAR 91.185) of 1) assigned 2) Minimum IFR altitude 3) expected altitude.  Easy right?  Well, when I started getting multiple answers I thought this might still be a grey area to a lot of people (including me!!). 

After doing some research minimum IFR altitude means, "The lowest IFR (instrument flight rules) altitude established for use in a specific airspace. Depending on the airspace concerned, the minimum IFR altitude may be a minimum obstacle clearance altitude (MOCA), a minimum en route altitude (MEA), a minimum sector altitude (MSA), a minimum vectoring altitude (MVA), a geographic area safe altitude (GASA), a safe altitude 100 NM, a transition altitude, or a missed approach altitude."

Going back to my scenario:

I'm not on a V-Airway.  So I guess that rules out flying an MEA.  4,000' was my expected altitude, but there are other altitudes in the SoCal Area that are higher and the regulation clearly says fly at the highest of the 3 altitudes.  I think I know what I would do in this situation but how would you handle this situation?  What altitude would you fly? Any references you have would be greatly appreciated. 

I'm about to take my CFII checkride soon and would like to see acceptable answers to a DPE.  Is there one specific right answer? or multiple right answers?  Thanks for your help!

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8 Answers



  1. KDS on May 10, 2018

    Who is giving you these “different answers”, what are they saying, and what logic are they using?

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  2. Matt B on May 10, 2018

    I have been asking multiple instrument rated pilots / CFIIs. I am actually planning on calling the FSDO and getting their answer just to have it on file and just to hear their opinion.
    So far I have gotten:

    -Just remain at 4,000′ because that is what you were told to expect in 10 minutes
    -Climb to 9,900′ because that is the OROCA for the grid in which you lost comms in. This seems really high in my opinion for only a 30 mile flight.
    -Climb to 6,800′ because that is the MSA round the Oceanside VOR for the quadrant you would be approaching in.
    -Climb to 8,000′ because that is the next highest IFR altitude above the MSA (west bound= even altitude. 8,000′ is the next even altitude above 6,800′)
    -Climb to 6,100′ because that is the OROCA in the grid in where Oceanside (KOKB) is located.

    There’s 5 different answers from 5 different people. All seem to have some good logic behind them. The overall advice I keep getting is do what you think is the safest and try to stay as predictable as possible.

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  3. John D Collins on May 11, 2018

    The standard answer would climb to 3000, and then after 10 minutes climb to 4000. Navigate direct to OCN, at OCN, do the approach. Hopefully the weather is better than the 500 overcast you stated, otherwise you are going to have to navigate to an alternate where you can find VFR or are able to complete the approach with a landing and the route will determine if you to fly at a higher altitude.

    As an aside, the argument for 8000 does not make sense, there isn’t a hemispheric rule for IFR flight in controlled airspace. ATC can assign any altitude although they typically assign even for westerly and odd for easterly, but the regulations don’t specify this.

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  4. KDS on May 11, 2018

    Take what John Collins wrote as the gospel and don’t believe anything that CFII you asked says until you check it for yourself.

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  5. Mark Kolber on May 12, 2018

    Trust but verify John’s answer (it is correct). Don’t ask a FSDO. That does not in any way guarantee the right answer, or, that you wouldn’t get a different answer on a different day.

    BTW, that’s not a slam on ASIs. Like everyone else, they are busy people who do not carry around a lot of unused information in their heads. Lost comm is a very, very rare situation. If an ASI has to investigate an incident where lost comm may be a factor, they will go back to the books. If one answers your question, it is likely to be off the cuff and at least as subject to error as the many wrong answers you got from CFIs who are required to teach it.

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  6. Kris Kortokrax on May 13, 2018

    I have to add a couple of things to the discussion.

    In your original post, you stated: “You are using the SoCal Tower Enroute Control (TEC) for your flight so you didn’t file a flight plan.”

    91.173 states: “No person may operate an aircraft in controlled airspace under IFR unless that person has—
    (a) Filed an IFR flight plan;”.
    The AIM requires filing a flight plan when using TEC. The A/FD also mentions using TEC routes when filing flight plans.

    Regards the altitude, 91.185 (c)(2)(ii) uses the term “minimum altitude for IFR operations”. 91.177 is titled “Minimum altitudes for IFR operations”. It mentions MEA, MOCA and goes on to add 1000′ above the highest obstruction within 4 NM of the course to be flown and 2000′ above the highest obstruction within 4NM of the course to be flown in mountainous areas. This is not the OROCA, which covers a given quadrangle.

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  7. Matt B on May 15, 2018

    John D. Collins: Thank you for your answer and your clarification. If I could, I have a follow on question. I might be getting too wrapped up around the axel over this but the reg. clearly states “fly the highest of the 3 altitudes”. While I 100% agree with you that if you are flying at 4,000′ around the San Diego Coastal area you won’t come close to hitting anything, how can you say that you are “flying at the highest of the 3 altitudes” if there are clearly higher options to choose from? I’m not saying that I believe 4,000′ is right or wrong, I just want a bombproof answer to give a DPE and so far that verbiage in the regs is still confusing.

    Thanks!

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  8. ayavner on Nov 08, 2018

    If this is a specific question you are expecting the DPE to ask, i wonder if the intent isn’t to see if you will get wrapped around the axle rather than going back to the main point which is how did you get a clearance without a flight plan? He/she may be seeing if you paid attention.

    great discussion btw, these sorts of things can do your head in!

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