Kbkv localiser only

6 Answers

1. 
   

   
   

   Gregory on Nov 11, 2016

   Looking at the approach plate for KBKV, this is an extremely simple approach that all instrument students should be able to answer early in their training. There’s nothing tricky here.

   The fact that you’re unable to answer this question independently speaks to a deficiency in your training that should be addressed in person by a qualified CFI. We could answer your online post with an exact number, but that wouldn’t address the deeper issue of why your question came up in the first place.

   IFR flying is dangerous unless properly trained. Simply answering the question without addressing the other basic skills that you might lack will give you false confidence that could get you killed.

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2. 
   

   
   

   Harry888 on Nov 12, 2016

   ah, great, yet again someone who thinks that this site is not askacfi!
   and is too busy making assumptions about who I am and why I am asking the question, real reason is that I have already asked this of a number of instructors and it has generated quite a debate which I thought I would bring online

   if there are any true CFI’s out there I would still welcome for your thoughts
   if there are any more know it alls, please dont reply and suggest I ask a cfi again, that line of response is getting a little boring

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3. 
   

   
   

   John D Collins on Nov 12, 2016

   Harry888,

   The answer is 1600.

   I also have to assume you are either not an IFR student or have not progressed to the point in your study to be taught how to read instrument approach charts.

   On approach charts with vertical guidance, most of the time the procedure is co-charted with a Non Precision Approach (NPA). The lateral path shown in the plan view is the same for both procedures, but the profile view shows differences. For a vertically guided procedure, there isn’t an actual FAF defining the beginning of the final approach segment, instead there is an altitude with a lightning bolt and arrow head pointing to the point the GS should be intercepted at. The altitude is also a minimum altitude for the segment between the IF and the NPA FAF which is designated by the Maltese cross. On the vertically guided procedure, once you intercept the GS, you follow it to the DA. The altitude shown above the Maltese cross is the nominal altitude of the GS as it passes over the FAF and is charted to permit the pilot to cross check the altimeter as they descend on the GS. This allows the pilot to check for gross errors as might be caused by a miss set altimeter setting. This altitude does not apply when flying the NPA procedure, since you have to remain at or above the segment minimum altitude and only start your descent to the MDA on passing over the FAF. If you are tracking the localizer, outside of BROAD, regardless of the type of procedure (ILS or Loc), the minimum crossing altitude is charted as 2000 feet.

   Edit: I posted this without having had the benefit of reading your post this morning. If different instructors are giving you different answers, that is sad.

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4. 
   

   
   

   Harry888 on Nov 12, 2016

   Thanks John, for your full and helpful post, your is indeed the first answer to the question

   Again where I am is not relevant, I asked this as I heard a number of differing views, localiser only approaches might not be flown that often, but here there are questions raised by the fact the glide slope intercept is neither at the FAF nor at the same altitude at the FAF, and that the maltese cross marker is shown on the glideslope at the lower altitude rather than above at 1600
   One instructor suggested that the 1600 refers only to the glideslope intercept altitude and does not represent a sector altitude, and hence the FAF altitude should be 2000, others said 1600, and there was further discussion as to why the cross was shown on the lower altitude glideslope

   Fortunately your answer makes it clear that this intercept altitude is ALSO the minimum sector altitude, and this is why I raised the discussion. In the FAA Instrument Flying hand book there is a plate for DFW, I think it is, where a similar situation is shown but where the altitude difference in the sector leading to FAF is c3800 and flying that in the way some suggested would have meant final descent rate of c1000 per nm, not very sensible at any airspeed

   The key here is bigger than this example, is no matter where you are in your training or flying career its worth reaching out and challenging, different pilots have different experiences, and if there is something which does not quite ring true you should research and question what you have been told

   Thanks again John

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5. 
   

   
   

   Russ Roslewski on Nov 12, 2016

   Since your original derogatory comments are aimed at me, it seems fair for me to respond.

   1600.

   There, what have you learned? I answered your question exactly as you asked it. And yet, it provides you no useful information. Nor do you know if it’s right. No actual training has been conducted, nor knowledge gained.

   Instead, if I challenge you to review other source material, or get with a CFI who can teach you about what altitudes mean on the profile view, then you will ultimately have learned something. The CFI respondents on this website (like me) care about your education as a pilot, not just as a repository of quick answers. Yes, it’s called askacfi, but you will see as you read more threads that we in general aren’t interested in providing rote, test-question type answers (as Gregory and I apparently agree on as well). Rather, if you post here with a well thought out question, including why you are asking and where you have looked to try to find the answer, we are more likely to help.

   To your specific question, this really is a basic chart-reading question that any instrument rated pilot should be able to answer. While John took the time to spell it out, everything he said should have been covered in your IFR training, ground school, test prep videos, etc. This situation is very, very common on ILS procedures. The fact that you’ve apparently asked some other CFIs about it and they are confused about it is just as concerning to me as it is to John above.

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6. 
   

   
   

   Harry888 on Nov 13, 2016

   Russ
   Again you are missing the point and you are assuming a huge amount
   I raised a question because I felt it an important discussion
   You assume it is because anyone asking is stupid

   This question and discussion was raised not because I did not know but because, and this might surprise you, as a responsible commercial pilot I don’t assume I know everything and take time regularly with instructors to challenge myself on areas to avoid complacency and over confidence and to ensure my learning is refreshed and continues to cover aspects of flying I don’t come across regularly

   What surprised me and why I raised the discussion is that when covering a related topic there was a view offered by a CFI on this subject which differed from the 1600 so rather than show arrogance and just ignore a CFI view, or show ignorance and accept a CFI view when it differed to mine I conducted quite a bit of looking back at texts and discussing with other pilots and CFI’s and what was clear was that there was a degree of hesitation in hitting the right answer

   My view was that if it did not generate an absolutely standard resonse then it was a useful discussion to provoke online and thankfully John provided a very helpful discussion of the factors involved
   Sadly I don’t see what your post added and that is why I re posted and commented further on the second respondent who acted in the same manner as you
   If someone is invited to ask a question on this website surely it is not right to shout them down, I guess this website has an aim to promote open discussion and help rather than it being a forum for some to make huge assumptions and be negative rather than to offer great discussion and advice in the manner John has kindly done here

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