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5 Answers

Logging Point To Point (P2P) Cross-Country Time

Asked by: 1046 views , , ,
Commercial Pilot, FAA Regulations, General Aviation

Under FAR 61.1, CC time is any time an airplane (and pilot) leave one airport and go to another airport, and the duration of that flight, however long, is CC time. Or so I'm to understand. So the question i have, is i have done tours for some time and i fly from one airport "Point A" (where the plane is kept/hangared) and i fly to another airport "Point B" (where the facility is located that the passengers are picked up at) and then after a few hours of tours, (landing and taking back off again from the "Point B" airport with passengers) i fly back to the original airport. Can i log all the time i spend at "Point B" airport as P2P?? By the book, i have checked every box under 61.1, i just want to make absolute certain there aren't any technicalities.

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5 Answers

  1. Kris Kortokrax on Aug 03, 2016

    What do you mean by having “checked every box under 61.1?” Further, you don\’t state for what purpose you want to use the cross country time and in what kind of aircraft you are flying. There are many nuances to “cross country”.

    Most of them require that it be 1 conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate, 2 in an aircraft, 3 includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure and 4 involves the use of DR, pilotage or electronic nav. There are distance requirements for certificates and aircraft for pilot certification.

    Your flight from A to B would seem to qualify, as would your return flight from B to A.

    What are you reading or hearing that leads you to believe that your sightseeing flights (which by definition in LOA A049 cannot be cross country flights, without a Part 135 certificate) could be logged as cross country?

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  2. Jake144 on Aug 03, 2016

    “Checked all the boxes” meaning, covered all the requirements that define cross country. As you listed 1-4. Or even more specifically part 61.1 (i) a,b,c,d. This cross country time would not be put towards any rating (instrument, commercial, ATP, etc) it will be logged as point to point (separate column in my log book than cross country defined by 61.1 (ii) a, b, c. Or 50+nm) time that can be used toward Part 135 operation. And i was not told it could be logged as cross country, i was asking IF it could. As these flights check all the boxes under 61.1 (i). It would be the same as flying to an airport for lunch, doing a few laps in the pattern, and returning. One could log that as P2P. Why not tours? Which are similar to that. (Being my thinking and reason for asking) And LOA A049 doesn’t speak about CC at all. This is what LOA A049 is – “Combined Drug and Alcohol Testing Programs for Air Carriers also Conducting Commercial Air Tours (Section 91.147; LOA A049)”

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  3. Jake144 on Aug 03, 2016

    And FAR 136.1-13 Commercial Air Tours (the flights are not conducted over national parks or the grand canyon so 136.31-69 would not apply) doesn’t say anything about not being able to log tours as cross country either. The only reg about cross country i can find is 61.1 as previously stated. And it says any flight that a pilot lands at another airport (other than it’s origin) is CC. As long as you aren’t logging that point to point cross country time towards a certification or currency requirement. Which i am not.

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  4. Kris Kortokrax on Aug 04, 2016

    FIrst, you can put anything in your logbook that you want. However, you may not be able to use everything that you enter toward satisfying experience requirements of the regulations.

    Next, A049 references 91.147. 91.147 deals with “any person conducting nonstop passenger-carrying flights in an airplane or helicopter for compensation or hire in accordance with §§119.1(e)(2), or 121.1(d), of this chapter that begin and end at the same airport and are conducted within a 25-statute mile radius of that airport.” 119.1(e) contains a list of commercial operations that may be conducted without needing an air carrier certificate.

    The sightseeing flights must not be cross country flights, unless you are operating under Part 135.

    61.51(b) describes how to make logbook entries. It states: “each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:” So, you could not make one logbook entry for the day to document your flight from A to B, the air tours and the return flight from B to A.

    A to B would be one entry.
    Each air tour flight would be a separate entry
    B to A would be another entry.

    For each of the air tour flights, the departure and destination airport must be the same per the language in 91.147. How could you justify logging cross country time if the destination is the same as the departure?

    Last, I would make a distinction between the situation where a flight goes from A to B and the pilot did a “few laps in the pattern” and a situation where a pilot made a 15 minute flight from A to B, then did 5 hours of air tour flights and a 15 minute flight from B back to A and wanted to log 5 1/2 hours of cross country time.

    You seem to be seeking opinions from people on the site supporting your idea. I doubt that you will find any.

    Note that we on this site offer our opinions. What we tell you has no legal standing, unless backed up by a legal interpretation. My suggestion to you would be to send your scenario to the Office of Legal Counsel. They will give you an answer. It will most likely not be the answer you are seeking.

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  5. Jake144 on Aug 04, 2016

    I was seeking no particular answer one way or the other. Just a thought that came to mind. Thanks for the clarification.

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