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8 Answers

Timing the landing round-out and flare HELP!!!

Asked by: 10726 views Private Pilot, Student Pilot

Hi, I'm a middle aged private pilot student who is having trouble figuring out when to start arresting my descent and start pulling back to flare and land. I started out in a 172, then to a 162 and finally found an instructor I can relate to with a 150. We are at a nice quiet country airport.He does a fantastic job, is an awesome pilot/ A&P and I've learned more from the last 10 hours with him than anyone else. I am comfortable with stalls, climbs, descents and turns, slow flight and take-offs, but struggle when it comes to the last few seconds of the landing phase. He says my approaches are very nice and stable, (could be better in crosswinds) and my airspeed is right-on almost all of the time with 20 deg. of flaps.  But when I get close to the runway, I feel like the numbers are rushing up to me and I'm just not sure when to slow my descent and hold off until I settle to the runway. I'm not sure how high I am. I feel like I'm at the mercy of the airplane while I wait for it to land, and when I pull the nose up, I lose visual reference for my guide altogether. I do not like feeling out of control and want to remedy this badly. Just not much time to figure out what I'm doing wrong or right. We've tried flying slow and low down the runway while not touching the wheels.  We recently shot a few night landings, and I forced myself to look farther down the runway. That helped and I did better, and actually greased three of them.  I think the runway lights next to me may have helped too. The instructor says i am on the edge of soloing but I need to do better landings. I have made some pretty good ones, OK to terrible crosswind ones, and what he calls great "carrier landings", but he reminds me that although my grandfather would be proud, we are in fact "NOT" on an aircraft carrier. I have logged around 32 hours total , with about ten in each aircraft, and a multitude of landings.  The previous CFI with the little 162 said the same thing, doing great but need to have more confidence during the landing phase. The 172 landed like a Buick, the 162 landed like a go-cart and ballooned all the time, and  the 150 is in between. Getting frustrated and want to get past this issue and move on.   Any ideas are appreciated. Thanks Guys!

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8 Answers



  1. John D Collins on Oct 13, 2015

    The first piece of advice I will offer is to stick with the same airplane and instructor until you master the landing. Ten hours in each of three airplanes with different instructors, leaves you with a fair amount of time adjusting to the new characteristics of each aircraft and maybe a new instructor.

    Second,learn how to use your peripheral vision to judge when you are sinking towards the ground. I use the following technique. Standing on the tarmac, look some distance far away towards the horizon. Slowly bend your knees and as you do notice the effect on your peripheral vision. As your head moves lower, it is relatively easy to see when you are sinking. When you raise up, you can see yourself rising as you would if you had misjudged the flare and ballooned upwards. Practice that until you can easily recognize if you are sinking, level, or rising.

    Third, when you are in the airplane, don’t try to judge the exact spot to begin your flare, but instead break it up into a series of pitch inputs that reduce your sink rate and allow you to continue the glide to the runway. I call it taking the edge off the descent. Two or three reductions in the glide to the runway will result in close to a level attitude.

    By doing this you extend the transition period of the flare. Eventually you should end up close to the ground, but still flying above it. Hold these inputs until you sense that you are sinking (from the exercise above). Add some back pressure on the yoke sufficient to eliminate the sink as you descend slightly. Eventually the airplane will continue the sink, arrest it again and so on until the main wheels prevent you from sinking any further. You have just landed when this occurs. Keep the wings level with the ailerons and the nose pointed down the runway with the rudder pedals.

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  2. Brett Schnur on Oct 14, 2015

    I appreciate the advice. Yes I have decided to stick with my CFI and finish here. And you are right. Flying different airplanes is not always good for a student. It has definitely held me back a little. I spend time with friends in Cubs and Citabrias too. It ends up confusing as they all handle very differently while landing, in ground effect and on the ground.
    I will try the smaller inputs vs a two or three step process, and the knee bend practice too.
    Seems like I use up a whole bunch of runway sometimes. And if we have any crosswind ( we usually do in the 5-15 knot range) it\’s a lot going on with slipping, wing low, one wheel etc. End up all crooked and goofed up at touchdown. A lot going on in 10 seconds.
    I guess I shouldn\’t be so concerned with using runway up and slow down my process.There is 4000 feet of it after all.

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  3. Mark Kolber on Oct 15, 2015

    Brett, on the crosswind part, watch out for over-complicating it. Wing low and landing on one wheel is not the goal. The one and only goal of a crosswind landing is to land with no drift and longitudinally aligned with the centerline. Touching down on one wheel is merely the result of touching down correctly in a crosswind, something to expect and consider as normal, not something to strive for.

    Although I have to admit it is kind of fun to watch a pilot force the airplane into a wing-low, one-wheel touchdown based on the wind at 200 AGL even though it decreased to 0 over the runway.

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  4. Brett on Oct 15, 2015

    Thanks Mark,
    That’s exactly how I am being taught, wing low and one wheel is perfectly normal and safe. I’m trying to accept that.
    I have learned that transitioning from a forward slip to side slip is more stable and much easier for me, than crabbing down and straightening out just before touchdown. It just seems to be a reflex to level the wings and start pulling back as I land, and awkward to land while leaned over to one side.
    I have mistakenly leveled the wings only to have the windward wing come up and the airplane then windmill into the wind, all while trying to figure out exactly when to pull back and prepare for a touch down.
    I received a good lecture,and learned a huge lesson on go-arounds that day.
    Some say to keep a little power in to help slow the process down a bit while close to the runway. And help control the descent by adding or taking away.
    This is a very different education. Nothing like anything I’ve ever done. .
    My goal is to be confident, in control and most of all SAFE.
    This dialogue is very helpful. Glad I found this site!
    Keep it coming and Thank You!

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  5. Mark Kolber on Oct 17, 2015

    I\’m not sure what you mean about transitioning from forward slip to side slip. While both are aerodynamically identical, a forward slip is the one designed to lose altitude. Not sure I would want to intentionally do that rather than make a nice normal stabilized approach. You might mean transition to the side slip early rather than later, and that is just fine – structly a matter of personal preference.

    The main thing to watch out for at the end of the process is the rollout. Crosswind accidents happen on the ground, not in the air. The most common error I see is neutralizing the ailerons at touchdown rather than (as we should do) moving the ailerons into the full deflection used for the crosswind taxi. Anticipating the need to do that as part of your crosswind landing self-briefing (a student of mine added it to his personalized landing checklist) can also help combat the natural tendency to neutralize just as we touch down.

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  6. BJ Miller on Oct 29, 2015

    Mark and John gave excellent advice. If I might pile on my two cents though, it sounds to me like you are doing two things, overthinking and “deck spotting” (thus the carrier landings). The solution to both of these situations is to simply fly the airplane all the way to the ground. No kidding right? Here is what I mean. You describe what sounds like a textbook explanation of somebody who flies to within about 3-5 feet of touchdown, anticipates the landing and thus stops making appropriate landing inputs. In the same fashion that you will not be a very good shot if you anticipate a trigger pull, you will never find success by anticipating a landing.

    For crosswind landings, I find the key to success is to not try to anticipate “textbook” inputs. I get a nice look at the windsock on final so I know which direction to put my wing down and then I simply fly to maintain lineup using top rudder for aircraft alignment. As Mark said, the goal is not to land with one wheel in contact, it is to land with the spinner pointing right down centerline. Believe it or not, you will get to a point where you almost (almost mind you) don’t even care where the wind is from because all you are concerning yourself with in the pattern is making whatever inputs are needed to maintain a proper ground track. This includes centerline lineup on final.

    In summation, do not concern yourself as much with wind direction as much as what I call “flying the centerline” on final. If you make the extended centerline your focus instead of the windsock you will naturally use “wing down” to maintain centerline and “top rudder” to maintain nose alignment. Crossing the threshold, make a very conscience choice to shift your focus to the departure end of the runway. Once the plane slows through ground effect (starts to settle) I like to simply try to hold the nose of my airplane on the horizon while continuing to “fly the centerline”. You will find that if you keep the nose of your airplane on the horizon, you will naturally be adjusting your flare and crosswind inputs to those required for a textbook landing. **This is only technique however.**

    Stay with it. It seems frustrating now, but we’ve all been there. I think your current CFI is the key to your success.

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  7. Brett on Oct 30, 2015

    Thanks Mr. Miller.
    I believe you are correct in that I sort of”wait” for the landing to occur and just hold still. Getting past that also, as I am trying to stay ahead of the airplane and not let myself drift across the runway. Seems to help if I get out of a crab and set up in a side slip earlier and maintain centerline with the ailerons and wing down into the wind. Still I have a tendency to over correct and use too much rudder and aileron as I get near the ground for some reason. Then i end up left and right – back and forth. Trying to focus on small inputs.
    Im also FINALLY getting to the point of realizing when to flare. Not at all sure when this happened, but I dont seem to be thinking about it much, just doing it.
    Trying to keep it simple and get out of this mental block.
    We flew several low passes on an 8000 ft runway the other day, and that was extremely helpful! (They should all be that big by the way)
    Such a great idea! Trying “not” to land. Every now and then the wheels would chirp and I’d add a little power and try to keep it straight. (still seem to use too much rudder for some reason, and then somehow seem to end up steering to the left of the centerline). Just little inputs needed.
    Over thinking is certainly bad.
    If I can keep it straight with the rudder and steer to the centerline with the ailerons I’m good.
    Those long low passes helped me the most, and honestly, it was lots of fun!
    And that’s why I’m here, FUN!
    Although I do think there might be something to that old saying about “old dogs and new tricks” !
    Thank’s guys for your help and words of wisdom. This is a great site. I like getting other pilots perspectives.
    Brett

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  8. ssgplazmoid on Nov 05, 2015

    When you are short final nearing the threshold start extending your gaze down the runway. This should help you make smaller control inputs. The nose up attitude when you touch down should look similar to when you rotate to take off. The flare is just transitioning from nose down toward the numbers to eventually nose up similar to when you took off. A technique my instructor helped me with my landings is similar to what you described where you flew low over a long runway as low as you could go but trying not to land. After doing that he had me land but maintain power to stay on the mains only (nose wheel off the ground) and just “drive” down the runway using rudder to stay centered and power to keep the nose wheel off the ground but not enough power to take off until we wanted to take off. It helped me build my confidence and helped me learn how to make small inputs when waiting for the plane to land rather than freezing up once I was in ground effect.

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