When to start descent during procedure turn

8 Answers

1. 
   

   
   

   John D Collins on Jul 16, 2015

   Please provide specific examples.

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2. 
   

   
   

   Mark Kolber on Jul 16, 2015

   John’s question is definitely on point. The general rule is that, once cleared for the approach, one may descent to the altitude published for that segment of the approach. Your question doesn’t give us enough information to tell us whether the 1600 was the PT outbound altitude, the PT inbound altitude or the altitude from the FAF to the MDA.

   If, for example, the PT was like the KGXY VOR-A (current chart subject to change) and the controller directed to “maintain 7,000, cleared for the approach” you would not be able to descend to 6300 until established inboound.

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3. 
   

   
   

   Drew on Jul 16, 2015

   Reference VOR 16 KDAB…. http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1507/00110v16.pdf
   Where the airplane is when it gets the clearance (in red)…..http://i.imgur.com/Kx7hqm6.png

   1600 is the PT outbound and inbound altitude. I don’t know if others use the same method, but I was taught to descend from the FAF (assuming there is one) when I am established on the inbound course and cleared for the approach. This descent procedure slightly different from when I should descend on to a published segment of an approach, such as when I am flying the procedure turn. In the case of the PT, I would descend when I am established on the published segment (not the inbound course) and cleared for the approach.

   If I am inbound on the barbed wire segment about to intercept the final approach course, wouldn’t I be established on the published approach and can descend to 1600 when I received the clearance? The argument against that, I think, is that the barbed wire turn is not a published section of the approach so you are not established until you finish the barbed turn inbound and intercept the FAC, at which point you would be established again and can start the descent. But if that argument holds true, then what if you get the clearance and start a descent on the outbound leg of the PT but before you make it down to 1600, you start the barbed wire turn? Would you have to pause the descent until you get established on the inbound?

   I appreciate the help.

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4. 
   

   
   

   Russ Roslewski on Jul 16, 2015

   The PT barb is very much a published segment of the approach, it even has an associated altitude with it. In your example, the 1600 that is on the left side of the profile view is the minimum altitude for the procedure turn, to include the outbound and inbound parts of the barb. The entire area is evaluated for obstacles, and 1600 is a safe altitude – within the procedure turn and as long as you are within 10 nm of the PT fix.

   So, outbound on the procedure turn, if you are cleared for the approach you can descend to 1600, fly the barb, and re-intercept (providing ATC doesn’t keep you higher for other reasons). Once you re-intercept and are headed to the FAF along the 156 degree course to the VOR, you are now permitted to descend to the FAF altitude, which is also 1600 in this case, but isn’t always the same. You reach the FAF, then begin your final descent down to MDA.

   A side note: what is considered “established”? I’m not aware of any hard rule, but mine is that I am 1) within half-scale deflection, and 2) pointed down the final approach course, at least approximately – so roughly heading 156 or as adjusted for wind.

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5. 
   

   
   

   Mark Kolber on Jul 16, 2015

   With the additional information, it is pretty clear that, without anything more, a simple “cleared for the approach” would allow a descent to 1600′ immediately since it is the published altitude for the PT. “Cleared for the approach” in this situation (after being held higher than published) typically means that all potential vertical traffic issues have been resolved and the aircraft is ok to descend as published.

   The question then becomes, was there “anything more,” such as an altitude restriction until established inbound? It is, of course, possible the DPE was wrong. It happens.

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6. 
   

   
   

   Drew on Jul 16, 2015

   Maybe there was more or maybe my friend misunderstood. Thank you.

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7. 
   

   
   

   John D Collins on Jul 16, 2015

   Hopefully third time is the charm. I posted this twice before but it got lost.

   The scenario provided is not a valid one in my opinion, One may only be cleared for this approach in one of two ways. 1) Cleared for the approach after vectors to final, in which case the PT is irrelevant, Cleared for the approach to the IAF without any altitude restriction after the approach clearance, in which case the pilot may descend to 1600 anytime after being cleared for the approach, crossed the IAF, and initially established on the outbound to the PT. The PT can be performed immediately, after a few miles, 4 miles, as long as the course reversal is on the same side as the charted barb. Remember the PT is not restricted to using the 45 degree PT as any course reversal type is permitted. Restricting the aircraft to 2,000 make no sense, because no controller would clear the aircraft for the approach in the first place without the approach being clear of traffic.

   Being instructed to proceed direct to the VOR (IAF) and proceed outbound at 2000 is a clearance to fly a radial course at an altitude and is in no way a prelude to an approach clearance. What in this clearance permits the aircraft to perform a PT in the first place, so
   getting your approach clearance while you’re just about finishing your procedure turn inbound–the inbound leg of the barbed wire–before crossing the approach course would be bogus. If you received a clearance for the approach at this point, you would be expected to fly the full procedure, including the PT after reaching the IAF. A direct to the FAF from this point is not permitted by the controller guidebook.

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   Drew on Jul 16, 2015

   John, I don’t know if flying the approach for practice as VFR changes anything, but ATC usually gives an altitude restriction for the approach during the PT when there is traffic. Otherwise, it’s to ensure that the aircraft remains clear of KOMN’s class D which lies under the Charlie outer ring up to 1200′ until it continues the descent down to MDA. From what I can tell from your answer, ATC seems to have different ways of having the aircraft perform the practice approach if it’s not IFR.

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