Can you depart VFR if the weather is IMC?

16 Answers

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   John D Collins on Mar 15, 2015

   91.155 defines basic VFR weather minimums. FAR 1.1 defines IFR conditions as: IFR conditions means weather conditions below the minimum for flight under visual flight rules. So if the conditions are VFR, then VFR flight may be conducted in the airspace.

   In class G airspace, both VFR and IFR daytime flights may be conducted when the visibility is 1 SM or greater. A major difference is that IFR permits the aircraft to enter the clouds or fly in lower visibility. If there are instrument approaches available for the airport, it is legal for both types to be in the G airspace at the same time. This means that an IFR airplane on an approach could break out of the clouds and immediately confront a VFR aircraft without any time available to maneuver to avoid a collision. I personally don’t fly VFR in minimum conditions, but if one does, I would hope that they continue to self announce as they fly the pattern, but this is not required and NORDO aircraft are also permitted in this airspace.

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   Drew on Mar 16, 2015

   So, weather categories like VMC/IMC have no relationship to the legal definitions of VFR/IFR. Well, that question is answered, but now have more questions from what you said:

   What’s the line between VFR and IFR if no IFR clearance is required for uncontrolled airspace? In other words, if I did not get an IFR clearance, but I was IFR-current with an IFR-capable airplane, could I simply just fly in and out of clouds whenever I wanted to? Is there a legal interpretation that perhaps answers it?

   Also, you say that “if there are instrument approaches available for the airport, it is legal for both types to be in the G airspace at the same time.” Does that mean that if there are no approaches, only one type of flight is allowed?

   Thanks.

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   Drew on Mar 16, 2015

   Also, I sometimes hear that an airport is “VFR” or “IFR”. I always assumed that they meant it was VMC or IMC since, for example, the weather could be 5 SM and OVC 008 (IMC) at a class B airport but the pilot would be could be cleared VFR as long as he maintained 3 SM and CoC. Or maybe ATC only reports an airport as IFR when they know for sure that the weather for that particular airspace is such that flying VFR is not possible at all?

   In the areas where class G doesn’t start until 14,500′ MSL, I personally would not feel comfortable flying in the soup knowing there are possible other IFR aircraft in the clouds without ATC orchestration.

   Maybe I should create a separate thread for each of these questions. Other members, please chime in.

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   Kris Kortokrax on Mar 16, 2015

   IMC and VMC are terms used to describe the present weather conditions for a given piece of airspace. These are defined by regulation

   IFR and VFR are a set of regulations under which you operate when flying in IMC or VMC respectively.

   91.173 requires a clearance and IFR flight plan when operating in controlled airspace. So, you don’t need a clearance to operate in Class G airspace under IFR. However, 91.177 requires you to operate at a minimum altitude of 1000′ above the highest obstacle within 4 NM. This would place you in Class E airspace and you would need an IFR flight plan and clearance. This would prevent you from flying through clouds in Class G airspace under 700′ AGL. It would probably not allow you to operate through clouds in Class G airspace that tops out at 1200′ AGL. All it would take is one tower over 200′ within 4 NM of your course to make you illegal.

   An aircraft would only be operating at low altitude in Class G airspace while completing an instrument approach. Otherwise, they would be in violation of the minimum altitude rule.

   You would not be operating under VFR in Class B airspace if the weather is 5 SM and 800 OVC, unless under SVFR and that is allowed only at certain Class B airports.

   Now, the important question is why you would ever want to consider operating through clouds in low level Class G airspace?

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5. 
   

   
   

   John D Collins on Mar 16, 2015

   First a caveat. I can’t provide a complete treatise on this topic in a short post, so there are details that are not included. Many of the points I make have exceptions, but I am only covering a major subset.

   Basic VFR minimums are spelled out in 91.155 with a special VFR exception in 91.157. Any conditions other than those spelled out in 91.155/157 must be conducted using IFR. In order to operate under IFR, one must be current and have an instrument rating and the aircraft has to be suitable equipped. The regulations for flight under IFR are contained in 91.167 thru 91.193. Some of these regulations apply regardless of the airspace type, while others have clauses which specify a section or the entire rule applies in either controlled or uncontrolled airspace. Some examples, 91.173 requires a flightplan be filed and an ATC clearance be obtained for flight in controlled airspace. 91.177 which defines the minimum altitude for IFR operations does not mention the type of airspace. 91.179 defines IFR cruising altitudes and has two set of rules, one for controlled airspace and another for uncontrolled airspace. You might be surprised to know that by regulation, there isn’t a hemispheric rule for IFR cruising altitudes inside of controlled airspace, but there is one in uncontrolled airspace.

   Class G airspace is uncontrolled airspace. ATC exercises no control or authority over this airspace. In most of the US, Class G goes from the surface to either 700 feet or 1200 feet AGL. The 700 foot ceiling is used mostly around airports that have instrument approaches. In some airspace, mostly in the mountainous areas and in the upper Michigan peninsula, the ceiling of class G airspace can be as high as 14,500 MSL. For convenience, I call the latter “high G” airspace. The high G airspace is going away and should be gone in a few years, so this is mostly an academic discussion. In the high G airspace, an IFR pilot/aircraft may fly in the clouds without a clearance as long as they comply with all the IFR rules that are applicable for this airspace. A clearance from ATC is not required nor can one be obtained inside of the G airspace. With the advent of RNAV direct using GPS, this has created some issues as it has become desirable to fly direct rather than be restricted to victor airways (which are in controlled airspace) and in some cases this takes the aircraft thru the high G airspace. This is permitted, but it is considered by ATC as a pilot request. Inside of the high G, 91.179 and the hemispheric rule kicks in and ATC does not control the aircraft and the pilot is fully responsible for separation from other IFR or VFR traffic.

   With respect to the low G airspace, one does not receive a clearance that applies while in this airspace. One obtains a clearance on the ground that applies on entering class E airspace. That is why you will not be assigned a heading without the release phraseology something like “Upon entering controlled airspace, fly heading …”. In a similar way, when you are cleared for an approach to an airport inside low G, you will be switched to the local frequency and told that radar service is terminated. When you are cleared for the approach, you are also cleared for the missed approach part of the procedure if needed. You are on an IFR clearance down to the boundary with class G airspace, after that you are not technically on a clearance, but you are still operating under IFR while in the low G. If the conditions are CAVU, it is obvious that you must comply with both IFR and VFR rules on the approach. This is equally true if the conditions are at VFR minimums of 1 mile and clear of clouds inside the low G.

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   Drew on Mar 16, 2015

   Thank you for your inputs. All of those make sense.

   Kris, while only SVFR is allowed with a ceiling of 1000′ AGL in controlled airspace, wouldn’t a SVFR technically be a VFR clearance? Once again, just theory and no practicality… Nobody would depart a class B with a SVFR when there is a low ceiling unless the pilot was landing at an airport right outside the surface area of the class B and simply doing a short 10 min hop at a low altitude to the destination. And even with that scenario, it’s not practical.

   And to answer your question, Kris, the reason I ask is to thoroughly understand FARs.
   You’ll notice that many of my questions are impractical or theoretical; they are questions that I happen to come across while learning and questions I ask because there are knowledgeable pilots here who can satisfy my curiosity.

   There is one practical thing I take away from the answer, which is that I know when I’m flying VFR, I can legally fly through the clouds at a class G airport if I happen to UNEXPECTEDLY (no forecast or reported) encounter a scattered layer (with holes showing the ground) near the TPA so long as I’m IFR-rated, current, and in an IFR-rate aircraft. If I saw that there was a solid ceiling, while I could technically fly IFR and bust through the clouds, it would be unsafe since I wouldn’t be able to see other traffic and wouldn’t know how thick the layer is. While busting through the cloud is technically legal (as long as nobody challenges your judgement and no accidents occur), it would be bad ADM, and in that case, I would simply fly an instrument approach or divert.

   Here are my conclusions:
   – If an airport is reporting “VFR” or “IFR”, it means that the weather is such that only the reported flight rules are possible to maintain (excluding SVFR).

   – IFR in class G is legal without a flight plan or clearance.

   – It’s simply not possible to even maintain IFR in most class G due to the MIA on non-published areas requiring min obstacle clearance of 1000’/2000′ above the highest obstacle within 4 nm. Legal does not mean safe, and flying IFR in class G under 1200′ AGL, even if possible, would simply be stupid.

   – In the class G that goes up to 14,500′ MSL, IFR is legal and somewhat safe. There is no ATC radar services provided, so you would need to trust other IFR pilots are flying the hemispheric rule altitudes using the most accurate altimeter settings (which won’t be automatically provided to you by ATC). I personally would not do this unless I knew the area like the back of my hand or unless I was climbing through class G to controlled airspace.

   – Legally speaking, ATC holds no responsibility for your safety if you shoot an approach down to a class G airport in IFR conditions after radar services has been terminated. In cases like these, like John says, a pilot should be on top of his game making radio calls and scanning while hoping that there is no NORDO VFR traffic that would fly in the airport with such low VFR minimums. Overall, legal and pretty safe.

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   Drew on Mar 16, 2015

   Well, the airports are assumed to be VFR unless reported as IFR. Reporting VFR would mean VFR or IFR is allowed.

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   Kris Kortokrax on Mar 16, 2015

   “while only SVFR is allowed with a ceiling of 1000′ AGL in controlled airspace, wouldn’t a SVFR technically be a VFR clearance’

   One does not need a ceiling of 1000′ to get a SVFR clearance. If the weather is 900 and 15 SM visibility, you could exit the B, C, D or E airspace and legally continue under VFR in Class G airspace.

   Given the amount of traffic at a Class B airport, it is unlikely that you would get a SVFR clearance in weather less than VMC.

   A SVFR clearance is a SVFR clearance. One can get SVFR clearance to operate through Class C airspace or Class D airspace. There is no such thing as a VFR clearance in this airspace. Two way radio communication is all that is required.

   “when I’m flying VFR, I can legally fly through the clouds at a class G airport if I happen to UNEXPECTEDLY (no forecast or reported) encounter a scattered layer (with holes showing the ground) near the TPA so long as I’m IFR-rated, current, and in an IFR-rate aircraft.”

   No, you cannot legally fly through the clouds in Class G airspace at an airport. You would not be able to do so at the required altitudes. You still need to comply with Instrument Flight Rules, even though you might be in Class G airspace.

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   Drew on Mar 16, 2015

   When you say that I wouldn’t be able to legally fly through clouds in Class G airport, are saying that it’s impossible since most TPAs are +/- 1000′ and I would still be in Class E until 700′? Wouldn’t some airports without instrument approaches simply have Class G go up to 1200′?

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    Kris Kortokrax on Mar 16, 2015

    No, what I am saying is that if you were to be in G airspace, you would likely be below 700′ AGL. In order to fly through a cloud, you would need to abide by Instrument Flight Rules. You would not be in compliance with the minimum altitude of 1000′ above the highest obstacle within 4 NM.

    Even if you were flying around an airport with Class G airspace starting at 1200′ AGL (there are some, but you will need to look long and hard for one that is not a privately owned airport), any charted obstacle (they chart the ones over 200′) would drive you into controlled airspace.

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    Drew on Mar 17, 2015

    I can see that the minimum obstacle clearance altitude would apply to cruising at high Class G airspace, but shooting an approach or even entering the pattern to land would be considered “necessary for landing” and therefore 91.177 would not apply. I guess there’s some fuzzy room to define the descending altitude that is necessary for landing. I would say that a descent from MDA or DA to land is the point at which descending through the MIA is necessary in Class G, whether it be for a straight-in approach or a circling (pattern altitude).

    Thanks you for your inputs, Kris and John.

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    Kris Kortokrax on Mar 17, 2015

    I’m not sure that we are (or at least I am) understanding what you were really asking.

    The impression I got was that you were wondering if you could blast off from a Class G airport and fly around under IFR in low altitude Class G airspace.

    As the discussion continued, I’m wondering if you were really asking if it were possible to depart under VFR for an IFR flight and pick up your clearance when airborne.

    And at the other end of the flight, if it is legal to fly through a cloud while conducting an instrument approach to an airport.

    If you depart, you must maintain VFR until you have received an instrument clearance. That will not typically happen until you can be radar identified if airborne. If you receive your clearance on the ground before departure, you will be given instructions on what to do upon entering controlled airspace. This all assumes departure from a non-towered field.

    During approach, you are letting down to the airport using an instrument approach procedure. The procedures are regulatory (Part 97). Since you are authorized to fly the procedure, you would not be in violation if you flew through a cloud while conducting the approach procedure.

    91.177 is not an issue in either of these cases, because it contains wording exempting takeoff or landing from the minimum altitude requirements.

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    Drew on Mar 17, 2015

    My apologies, Kris. My thoughts did get jumbled somewhere along the line of asking so many follow-up questions.

    “If you depart, you must maintain VFR until you have received an instrument clearance.”

    Going back to whether one can depart IFR in low Class G. Legally speaking, while Part 91 can takeoff in 0/0, 91.177 dictates that minimum altitude must be met after doing the takeoff maneuver. Therefore, even if you were to takeoff in IFR to a reasonable altitude that would not be “necessary for takeoff” (I’d say >700′ AGL for GA), you’re almost guaranteed to either already be in Class E OR be in violation of 91.177 by not maintaining 1000′ above the highest obstacle/surface. Therefore, the only time you could actually takeoff in Class G without a IFR flight plan and clearance is if the airport underlies a HIGH Class G. In other words, if you want to depart out of most Class G, you would need to maintain VFR until receiving a clearance.

    So much for that trick question of whether part 91 operators can depart in 0/0. You actually can’t for most of time.

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    Drew on Mar 17, 2015

    only for Class G for that last remark

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    Kris Kortokrax on Mar 17, 2015

    A 0/0 takeoff for me would be an emergency procedure. If the bad guys were coming to get me and the only way out were to take off 0/0, I would consider it.

    In the 135 world, normal takeoff minimums for 1 & 2 engine aircraft are 1 SM or 5000 RVR (Opspec C057). Lower than standard takeoff minimums are found in OpSpec C079. There are requirements for runway lighting, RVR sensors, minimum experience in the aircraft for the PIC and SIC and a requirement to have demonstrated the takeoff during training. With all these requirements met, the lowest takeoff minimum is 600 RVR.

    I can’t imagine why a Part 91 single pilot with minimal training, in a single engine airplane would consider a 0/0 takeoff.

    91.177 does not kick in the moment the wheels leave the runway. If you have obtained a clearance on the ground, no problem. If you are picking up your clearance in the air, you must maintain VFR until you have the clearance, as you said.

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    Phoebe on Mar 25, 2015

    We have an issue at our field where some ATC say that the field is IMC/VMC and others say it’s wrong because you are supposed to say IFR/VFR. What is the reg for it so that I can squash it once and for all.

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