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7 Answers

172S Approach Speed – Is my Instructor Doing the Right Thing?

Asked by: 5960 views Flight Instructor, General Aviation, Private Pilot, Student Pilot

I'm a student pilot working on my PPL who, according to my instructor - because I sure as heck don't know any better! -  has an "excellent feel for the plane".  My instructor started saying this after our second-ever flight where I was very successful at Steep Turns, S Turns, etc.  It continued, though, through the third lesson in slow flight, stalls (power on and off), etc.   For all I know I could have just gotten lucky, but I will say that I always felt comfortable handling the plane (a 2003 172).  Well, that all ended when we started landings.  I now have 19 hours (having successfully completed our night time cross country), and over 100 landings, but I'm still not sure they're right.  My instructor said that nothing I am doing is unsafe, but we almost always balloon and then bounce a little (though not a lot) on the landings.  I've watched all the videos (online, sporty's, etc., etc), and read just about everything I can get my hands/eyes on to get different takes. 

My pattern work is not a problem (after 100 times around, no one's would be!!!) As best I can figure out, I think we may be approaching too quickly.  There are some approach obstacles, so we we always turn from base to final at about 700-800 AGL, and add in full flaps (from 10 degrees that were down on base).  On finaly, then, I am fully stabilized with a laser-beam lock on the numbers almost every time (adding very slight bits of power as necessary, but often not) and am maintaining a speed of 70-71KTS all the way until the roundout/flare (at which point, I can't see how fast we're going).  Even when I flare exactly when my instructor tells me to, we're ballooning quite a lot (and I'm pretty sure that it's not because I'm over-flaring - let's just say I've tested it).    The other thing is that when we use the runway with the PAPI, my instructor always insists that we be high (four white). 

I had a lesson with another instructor, but it was in a different plane and at a different airport, and he said to keep the plane on the PAPI and maintain 65 (configured full flaps, still).

In summary, then, I'm always approaching the runway at about 70KTS, high of the PAPI glide slope (if there is one), but fully stabilized and can really pick out my "aiming point" at will.  However, I nearly always balloon and then have to re-flare on landing.  Would the combination of too high/too fast be enough to throw me off? 

Thanks 

7 Answers



  1. Jim F. on Jan 11, 2015

    The only way to balloon is to be too fast. The POH’s final approach speed is 65kts, and that’s assuming max weight. Since most training flights will be quite a bit under max weight with about half fuel, that means your real airspeed should be less. Try doing a few around 60-62kts.

    Oh, and get on that PAPI! Bring up AIM 2-1-2(b), where it states the PAPI provides safe obstruction clearance within 10 degrees of center-line out to 4 statute miles. So why stay high and create an unstable approach?

    How experienced is this instructor? Just with these two items, I’m a bit worried about their knowledge of the NAS and related components (such as the PAPI), as well as their adherence to the POH. Sure, the recommended speed isn’t a limitation or all that important safety-wise, but if they nonchalantly disregard a best-practice like that, what other important items do they disregard?

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  2. Dan S. on Jan 11, 2015

    65-70 usually works pretty well with the 172s. Unless you’re doing short field approach speeds you can always expect some floating as you round out. Try not thinking of it as a flare, as you transition into a landing attitude. When students are having a problem during this transition phase (either not enough back pressure, and getting a bounce, or too much back pressure, and getting that balloon like you said), I get them to put just enough back pressure to hold the plane just above the ground. Then, as the plane starts to sink as airspeed bleeds off, you can start adding more back pressure until you get a nice touch down on the mains. Remember, the faster the plane sinks, the more back pressure you apply. Gradual sinking= light back pressure, and rapid sinking= quick and significant back pressure. Try this exercise: execute a normal approach and as you round out, keep enough power in to keep the plane from touching down, and fly the length of the runway in this level flight attitude. Remember this sight picture, and use it for your next round out. As you reduce your power, allow the plane to sink onto the runway as you steadily increase back pressure towards landing attitude. See if that helps.
    In regards to the PAPI and glide path, I’m sure your instructor is trying to emphasize safety, so that in the event of an engine failure you would be able to make the runway. Ok, I might somewhat agree if you have a long runway, but caution must be exercised at short fields if this approach is practiced. High and fast could get you in trouble. I believe a stable approach is paramount, especially with new students, but I also don’t know what your terrain situation at your airport dictates. I would ask your CFI for an explanation.

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  3. Matthew Waugh on Jan 13, 2015

    Teaching landings is an art not a science. So you may need to fly with some other instructors to get some insight.
    You are unable to recognize the problem because you say “I’m pretty sure that it’s not because I’m over-flaring” – yet you say you balloon? Well over-flaring is ballooning – if you weren’t over-flaring you wouldn’t balloon. So I’m not sure what your test was but it’s invalid.

    You may be approaching too fast, and when you approach too fast you must bleed of that excess airspeed in the flare and that continuous process of adding back pressure as the airspeed slows keeping the plane “inches” from the runway is hard.

    It is typical that people use the published approach speed (which is for gross weight and thus probably too fast for your weight) and then instructors add 5-10K for the wife and kids and often the student adds another 5K “just to be safe” and you’re screaming down final at 150K.

    If “your” airport has an interesting approach, and it seems like it might between your description of the turn to final and the desire to be high on the PAPI, go somewhere else with a normal approach. Learn the standard approach first – then learn the nuances. I used to fly at an airport where we turned base over the nunnery and went to idle crossing the power lines. Not a great place to learn the standard pattern and approach.

    You might be too fast, but there are plenty of people coming down final at 70K in a C172 and making perfectly good (if a little long) landings. Approach speed alone won’t fix your problem (I suspect).

    Good luck – once you learn to land you’ll wonder why you thought it was so difficult.

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  4. Jim MacKay on Jan 15, 2015

    It appears that from the warmth and safety of my desk, your landing speed may be a touch fast. With that said and not in the aircraft with you I would throttle back to 60-65 KTS for most 172’s.
    There is a saying I use when teaching landings. EVERY THING EQUALS 100
    Down Wind 10 degrees flaps and 90 KTS
    Base 20 degrees flaps 80 KTS
    Final 30 or full flaps and 70 KTS

    When you have the landing assured, power to idle and leave you hand on the throttle.
    This will almost guarantee you a non ballooning, and a relative soft landing. Good luck with practicing and once you get it you will be fine.
    Don’t be too hard on your flight instructor

    Jim

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  5. Ryan Yoder on Jan 17, 2015

    Not a cfi but one thing I learned in my Mooney is to keep your approach speed in check and based off the book or 1.3 vso. Also, keep it trimmed for hands off during the final and when “flaring” rough trim nose up again because you are now flying slow flight over the runway and you always fly in trim during slow flight right? So why not fly in trim in ground effect? It helps you to make fine final adjustments to keep the nose high for touchdown.

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  6. Gary S. on Apr 03, 2015

    William, go by the POH. If your cfi has a problem with that, ask him/her why.

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  7. Andre Alexis C. Dubouzet on Apr 18, 2015

    Balloon is a simple case of approaching too fast. Reduce your airspeed and flare gently at the right time. When your aircraft starts to balloon, maintain that back pressure and allow the tires to kiss the ground. Never push the yoke as it will increase your airspeed. One effective way that I found useful is to recite in your head “I don’t want to land” while slowly pulling your yoke for flaring. Be gentle with your controls.

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