Own terrain and Obstruction Clearance. vfr-ifr

7 Answers

1. 
   

   
   

   Ben on Sep 21, 2010

   Okie Dokie – So, if I understand you correctly you’re giving the following scenario:

   You’re currently flying VFR
   There is a solid overcast layer above you (let’s say it carries on for infinity and has no breaks)
   There is a terrain element – let’s say a mountain ridge that extends upwards into the overcast layer. And this ridge is in your way or will be very soon.
   You’re trying to pick up an IFR clearance so you can punch through the clouds and get above the terrain
   The controller asks you: “Are you able to maintain your own obstruction clearance between present alt. and xxxft”

   And your questions were:
   Q: Would you fly through the clouds:
   A: No I would not as I haven’t got an IFR clearance yet – If I was coming perilously close to the terrain I would turn around or circle in VFR until I got my IFR clearance. Remember if you’re VFR you can fly in any direction you want to – you’re the boss – so don’t just go blindly into the mountain! You can’t climb because of the overcast layer and you can’t descend because last time I checked you can’t fly underneath a mountain. So you must change your route / direction of flight – you don’t need permission to do this when you are VFR but an advisory to mr.controller would be polite.
   The issue you’re getting at here is the controllers question: “Can you maintain your own obstruction clearance between present alt. and xxxft”…..this is NOT an IFR clearance, this is the controller telling you that he cannot guarantee you terrain clearance (maybe his radar is out?) and needs to know if YOU can keep clear of the terrain yourself (maybe you have a terrain awareness device installed?)
    
   Let’s pretend you answered him “Affirmative” – I would expect that his next communication to you would be that IFR clearance you’ve been waiting for. But until you get that clearance (“Cessna123 is cleared to KLAX via radar vectors, climb and maintain 9000ft fly heading 360 etc etc) you are still VFR and cannot go through that cloud layer.
   Hope this makes sense.

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2. 
   

   
   

   ATC-Mike on Sep 22, 2010

   Actually i’m a controller. just wondering seems kinda grey from our side.Basically answered the question(no).
   When asked  “Our you able to maintain your own terrain and obstruction clearance between present altitude and xxx” its to get you to the MVA(minimum vectoring altitude) so we can clear you ifr.  if your unable Will say Maintain VFR say intentions.
   Will get pilots come in under an ovc ceiling at 800. Some will climb through(or at least im lead to believe) and some won’t
   Its common for a pilot call up and say
   N1234 Were on the 180 for 8 under the cloud layer were able to maintain our own terrain and obstruction clearance if your able to provide us with traffic advisorys.
   while others won’t go anywhere near the ceiling.
   Im assuming the pilots coming in over the water climb through the clouds knowing terrain and obstructions are no factor climb real quick hit the altitude and get their clearance.
   which would be illegal for a VFR guy yeah? even when just maintaining own terrain and obstruction clearance <— main question
   thoughts?
    
    
    
    
    

    

    

    

    

    

    
   
    

    

    
   
    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

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3. 
   

   
   

   ATC-Mike on Sep 22, 2010

   This is the rule for us in the 7110.65 4-2-8 it says if im aware that the pilot will be unable to climb in vfr ask him if he’s able to maintain his own terrain and obstruction clearance which leads me to believe you can go through the clouds at pilots discretion.

    
   When a VFR aircraft, operating below the
   minimum altitude for IFR operations, requests an IFR
   clearance and you are aware that the pilot is unable to
   climb in VFR conditions to the minimum IFR
   altitude:
   
   1.
   
    
   
    
   Before issuing a clearance, ask if the pilot is
   able to maintain terrain and obstruction clearance
   during a climb to the minimum IFR altitude.
   
   NOTE
   
    
   
    
   Pilots
   of pop-up aircraft are responsible for terrain and
   obstacle clearance until reaching minimum instrument
   altitude (MIA) or minimum en route altitude (MEA). Pilot
   compliance with an approved FAA procedure or an ATC
   instruction transfers that responsibility to the FAA;
   therefore, do not assign (or imply) specific course guidance
   that will (or could) be in effect below the MIA or MEA.
   
   EXAMPLE-
   
   “November Eight Seven Six, are you able to provide your
   own terrain and obstruction clearance between your
   present altitude and six thousand feet?”
   
   2.
   
    
   
    
   If the pilot is able to maintain terrain and
   obstruction separation, issue the appropriate clearance
   as prescribed in para 4-2-1, Clearance Items,
   and para4-5-6, Minimum En Route Altitudes.
   
   3.
   
    
   
    
   If unable to maintain terrain and obstruction
   separation, instruct the pilot to maintain VFR and to
   state intentions.
   
   4.
   
    
   
    
   If appropriate, apply the provisions of

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4. 
   

   
   

   Curtis Ide on Oct 04, 2010

   Mike,
   Thought I would follow up with a little more information.
   What was said above is all correct – A pilot VFR or IFR rated is not able to enter into IMC conditions in controlled airspace until they are cleared onto an IFR Flight Plan.  Therefore the legal answer is that a pilot can not ascend through the clouds to get to Minimum Vectoring Altitude if they don’t have a clearance. As for flying below the cloud layer as long as the pilot can maintain VFR cloud clearances there is nothing against this other than a possible diminished safety factor of flying low level.  
   However,  I have seen and talked to pilots who will climb through the clouds risking a mid-air with people that are following the rules. 
   Also, for your reference some unexperienced pilots may feel pressure to climb if they know you need them at a certain altitude to get things rolling.
   Short answer but hope it helps with the follow up question.

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5. 
   

   
   

   Chris Findley on Oct 05, 2010

   I agree with Curtis. 
   No, I would not and would not advise my students to fly into IMC without an IFR Clearance.  It’s not legal and is risky.  Sounds like some wording clarification is due on the ATC side for you guys.  But instrument students are taught very clearly not to enter controlled airspace in IMC without an IFR clearance.   

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6. 
   

   
   

   Heather McNevin on Nov 03, 2010

   Ive experienced this as a pilot and a controller.  I take the question as a pilot, to ask if I can make sure I dont hit any towers, mtns, etc after I get the clearance as I climb to the MVA, where the controller is then helping me with maintaing terrain and obstruction clearance.  As a controller, I wouldnt expect the pilot to climb through the clouds without that clearance, but the question must be asked of them if they will protect themselves before I can legally do so.  If they are unfamiliar with the area, their answer may be no, in which case they need to make their intentions known. 

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7. 
   

   
   

   Michael arthur on Feb 16, 2014

   So let me use this hypothetical situation. I takeoff Vfr and maintain legal cloud separation and visibilities and will pick up the clearance airborne. I’m in a no radar environment, with terrain all around executing the published obstacle procedure. When I go pick up the clearance the controller ask “can you maintain terrain separation “, and then issues me the full clearance after I say yes. This sounds like I can continue into the clouds and stay the published obstacle procedure. The question is can I use on board terrain mapping avionics to “maintain terrain clearance”–especially if I get a delay in getting a clearance and wander off the departure procedure path? To me it sounds like atc is taking the traffic part, and the pilot taking the terrain. I know most of the terrain mapping avionics say “not for navigation” but technically your not using it for that, but to maintain terrain separation.

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