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14 Answers

Using holding pattern as procedure turn for VOR approach?

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Instrument Rating

I wanted to get verification about entering a VOR approach from a hold. 

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1407/05062V2.PDF

If you are holding as it is published on the chart for whatever reason (ex. the examiner asks you to hold there) and approach clears you for the VOR approach while holding, can you just fly that 208 outbound leg of the hold for 2 minutes then intercept the final approach course inbound and shoot the approach? Or do you have to intercept the final approach course outbound and shoot the course reversal? I was told I could find my answer in the Instrument Flying Handbook but can't seem to find it...

Thanks!

14 Answers



  1. Kris Kortokrax on Jul 17, 2014

    You can find it in the AIM. Paragraph 5-4-9 states:

    “On U.S. Government charts, a barbed arrow indicates the maneuvering side of the outbound course on which the procedure turn is made. Headings are provided for course reversal using the 45 degree type procedure turn. However, the point at which the turn may be commenced and the type and rate of turn is left to the discretion of the pilot (limited
    by the charted remain within xx NM distance). Some of the options are the 45 degree procedure turn, the racetrack pattern, the teardrop procedure turn, or the 80 degree  260 degree course reversal. Racetrack entries should be conducted on the maneuvering side
    where the majority of protected airspace resides.”

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  2. Mark Kolber on Jul 18, 2014

    I was told I could find my answer in the Instrument Flying Handbook but can’t seem to find it…

    The same language Kris quotes from the AIM also appears in the Instrument Flying Handbook. It’s in Chapter 1, the very beginning of the discussion of “Procedure Turns”

    I recently saw the opposite done. Apparently one of the instrument schools (might be the Gatts program but I’m not sure) uses a standard procedure turn technique to substitute for both the parallel and teardrop entries. I watched someone do it recently and, while it is a technique I don’t see adopting myself, found it interesting.

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  3. August on Jul 18, 2014

    I believe you should track the course outbound so as not to drift away from the course before turning inbound. Tracking a heading outbound might yield an inbound turn that is too wide or too sharp depending on the winds. Take an extreme example of having a 40 kt crosswind from the east. The wind would carry you west past the course before the procedure turn, at which point, the outbound leg of the procedure turn (left turn) would still keep you on the non-maneuvering side of the course.

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  4. Kris Kortokrax on Jul 18, 2014

    He stated that he is already holding as published. Don’t you think he has nailed down the wind correction well enough to track outbound one last time before turning inbound and executing the approach???

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  5. August on Jul 18, 2014

    Kris, you are right. I misread and thought that he would simply fly the outbound heading.

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  6. DeWitt Barker on Jul 19, 2014

    Look at the approach at KPNS for VOR 8. If you are in holding pattern & cleared for approach there is no reason to leave hold and track outbound for PT. If flying inbound from let’s say the east and are cleared for approach than yes, hit VOR track out & do the PT. That’s how I teach it.

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  7. Mark Kolber on Jul 20, 2014

    You are correct DeWitt. Even in Colin’s example, once in the hold and cleared for the approach, there’s no need to “fly that 208 outbound leg of the hold for 2 minutes then intercept the final approach course inbound and shoot the approach.” On the next normal inbound*, just continue through the FAF and onto the FAC.

    (*might be the current inbound or the next one based on how ready you are to continue)

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  8. Colin Levy on Jul 20, 2014

    Mark Kolber, I am a bit confused with your comment

    If you are in a standard hold as depicted on the chart, how can you “continue through the FAF and onto the FAC” on the next inbound?

    I am so confused…

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  9. Mark Kolber on Jul 21, 2014

    Colin,

    Sorry. You have the right to be confused. In the case of this particular chart, the missed hold is over the on-airport VOR. You’d probably be way too close to the runway in the holding pattern to descend using anything close to normal maneuvering (except perhaps in a helicopter).

    Compare that with DeWitt’s example http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1407/00318V8.PDF. In that one, the missed hold is based on the NUN VOR FAF, 7.3 NM from the MAP. Turning inbound in the hold, you’d be free to start your descent from 2600 to 2000 msl until NUN and then simply continue down to the MAP after crossing NUN.

    Even in the approach you linked to, assuming you and your airplane were capable of doing it using normal maneuvering, you are permitted to turn inbound in the hold and start your descent to the MAP. It just makes more operational sense to fly outbound longer to help set up a stabilized inbound.

    Does looking at those help? If not, are you still stuck on the idea Kris refuted earlier? The PT barb tells you nothing other than which side of the course to make your turns (and the profile view tells you how high you must be and how far out you can go). Everything else is left up to you including what kinds of turns to make and how far outbound to fly (within the profile view limitation)

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  10. Colin Levy on Jul 21, 2014

    I completely understand the course reversal (as Kris stated) and what you mentioned Mark about the hold being to close to the runway on my example to make a stabilized approach from. I agree that it makes more sense to fly outbound and do the procedure turn to give you more room and better setup the approach.

    My concern is if you are in the hold and are cleared for the approach. How do you get established on the final approach course outbound legally? After you cross the VOR in the hold would you just keep turning right to say 240 and intercept the final approach course outbound? If so, how would your timing work?

    http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1407/05062V2.PDF

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  11. Best Answer


    Mark Kolber on Jul 21, 2014

    What you may still be missing is there is no requirement that you get established on the final approach course outbound.. To once again re-quote the AIM blurb Kris quoted:

    a barbed arrow indicates the maneuvering side of the outbound course on which the procedure turn is made. Headings are provided for course reversal using the 45 degree type procedure turn. However, the point at which the turn may be commenced and the type and rate of turn is left to the discretion of the pilot

    You certainly could turn to 240 and intercept the FAC outbound – if you chose. You could also parallel it by continuing the 208° outbound portion of the hold (with appropriate wind correction) for a minute, 2, or whatver you live (so long as you stay within 10 NM of MKL.

    When you do that you, to use the AIM language, on “the maneuvering side of the outbound course.” You have decided “the point at which the turn may be commenced” was the last time you turned outbound in the hold and the “the type and rate of turn” is a racetrack pattern with an extended outbound leg.

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  12. Mark Kolber on Jul 21, 2014

    What you may still be missing is there is no requirement that you get established on the final approach course outbound.. To once again re-quote the AIM blurb Kris quoted:

    a barbed arrow indicates the maneuvering side of the outbound course on which the procedure turn is made. Headings are provided for course reversal using the 45 degree type procedure turn. However, the point at which the turn may be commenced and the type and rate of turn is left to the discretion of the pilot

    You certainly could turn to 240 and intercept the FAC outbound – if you chose. You could also parallel it by continuing the 208° outbound portion of the hold (with appropriate wind correction) for a minute, 2, or whatever you like (so long as you stay within 10 NM of MKL.

    When you do that you, to use the AIM language, on “the maneuvering side of the outbound course.” You have decided “the point at which the turn may be commenced” was the last time you turned outbound in the hold and the “the type and rate of turn” is a racetrack pattern with an extended outbound leg.

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  13. Mark Kolber on Jul 21, 2014

    Sorry for the duplication

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  14. Colin Levy on Jul 21, 2014

    Mark, I must of skipped a sentence from Kris’ quote, I am terribly sorry.

    It makes perfect sense now! Thank you so much for the clarification!!

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