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11 Answers

When can I log PIC as a new CFI from a Military Competency Instructor

Asked by: 2832 views Flight Instructor

I recently completed my Military Competency Instructor and was given my CFI in Single Engine Airplane, Multi Engine Airplane, Powered Lift and CFII airplane.  I'm working toward my ATP and am in a weird situation where my powered lift does not meet my ATP 250 hours airplane requirement but meet the 1500 hours total requirment.  I'm trying  to build flight time (PIC) and my buddy is doing the same thing and working toward his commercial ratings.  Can I log PIC when I fly with him as long as I'm practicing my civilian CFI techniques.   I fly MV-22s but Harriers and ourselves (F-35s soon enough) all fly 99% as airplanes but can't log the time.  I see a lot of references to the Chief Counsel.  How would I contact them to request clarification on this? Final question is if my military time prior to me getting my initial Military Competency Commercial rating counts toward my PIC airplane time.  I have plenty of single and multi engine time but didn't get my rating until after I was winged.  I know you can't log PIC without a rating but its hard to imagine 2 years of military flight school won't count toward my ATP.  It counted toward my Commercial and CFI...so whats the difference?  Sorry for all the questions and thanks for any responses.

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11 Answers



  1. Kris Kortokrax on Oct 05, 2013

    The first question that comes to mind is:

    If you were instructing in Single engine and Multiengine airplanes in the military, why would you not have 250 hours of airplane time?

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  2. dunnage1865 on Oct 05, 2013

    Appreciate the quick response. Our pipe line goes through single, multi, helicopter, and then finally into the MV-22. I just returned from a Basic Instructor Course that allowed me to instruct the Pipeline and the FAA recognized this as Military Competency for all my ratings. If I could log all my Flight School time and civil, I would meet the requirements. But as of now I went straight to a commercial rating after my multiengine and never held a private pilots license. If they would just recognize our Powered lift for the airplane requirement there would be no issue. Right now i’m starting at zero PIC and looking for cheapest option to build PIC. Was also thinking about just flying all instrument and using the safety pilot option. I am trying to meet the requirements but feel its ridiculous to spend 20K just to fly back and forth in a 152 to build hours I don’t really need. I appreciate this site because I found a response from the Chief Counsel stating military time even without the rating first would be accepted (Letter to Tom Morris 2006).

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  3. Kris Kortokrax on Oct 05, 2013

    Take a look at 61.73(g).

    Do you hold a Commercial Pilot certificate with:
    Airplane Single Engine Land
    Airplane Multiengine Land
    Rotorcraft Helicopter
    Powered Lift
    Instrument – Airplane and Powered Lift

    Do you have a military document showing that you passed proficiency checks for each of the category/class ratings as an instructor?

    If helicopter was a part of the pipeline, then why weren’t you issued a Rotorcraft-Helicopter CFI rating?

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  4. dunnage1865 on Oct 05, 2013

    I do hold Commercial Pilot:
    Airplane Single Engine Land
    Airplane Multiengine Land
    Rotorcraft Helicopter
    Powered Lift
    Instrument – Airplane and Powered Lift

    I also wondered why the FSDO picked and chose what I got. I think I rate a CFII Powered Lift also but am new to the civilian ratings and wasn’t going to argue with the “Gate Keepers”. Really thinking my main option is to contact the Chief Counsel and get clarification on how they interpret Powered Lift and if it meets the ATP requirement. What are the procedures for contacting them and what is the average turn around time? Thanks for the help.

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  5. Kris Kortokrax on Oct 05, 2013

    61.159(a)(4) requires 250 hours in an airplane.

    61.163(a)(3) requires 250 hours in powered lift.

    I would bet my bottom dollar that legal counsel will not allow Powered Lift time to count for airplane time.

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  6. dunnage1865 on Oct 05, 2013

    I unfortunately think your right. I think its still worth asking but that leads me back to the original question. When can I legally log CFI time or is it better to just fly IFR all the time and purchase a pair of Foggles as a safety pilot? Its funny that my multiengine time does not have to be PIC but the airplane time does…ahhhhh regulations.

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  7. Kris Kortokrax on Oct 05, 2013

    Now to your other questions.

    MV-22 and Harrier may be in a configuration that resembles an airplane, but they are still considered powered lift. In the civilian world, you need a powered lift rating to fly them. You cannot get by having airplane and helicopter ratings. That is why your time doesn’t count towards airplane time.

    As far as logging PIC while in an airplane with your buddy, if you are giving him instruction, you may log that time as PIC. If you are just riding along and “practicing your civilian CFI techniques” I would think you would not log that time as PIC.

    Also, just curious as to how military CFI technique and civilian CFI techniques differ concerning teaching things like straight and level, climbs, descents, turns, stalls, slow flight, takeoffs and landings, etc. I think that the FAA grants the CFI based upon the idea that you know how to instruct and should need no “practice”.

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  8. dunnage1865 on Oct 05, 2013

    All instructors need practice even in the military. I’ve been reviewing my new shiny Jeppeson CFI books and realize that there are some obvious differences in our training and readiness requirements. Eights on pylons and lazy eights are not in any syllabus I’ve been in yet. I take it your opinion is that I should stick with the foggles and IFR option?

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  9. Sam Dawson on Oct 05, 2013

    Your solo time in flight school counts as PIC time.
    If you have IP orders or a graduation certificate for a Powered Lift IP course you should be able to get your CFI-Powered Lift.
    As Kris points out, category and class is category and class. Just because you shut down an engine on a twin does not mean you are now logging single engine land. Now I always did wonder… did space shuttle pilots log MEL during lift off, then glider time during landings? But I digress.

    I did it this way. If I was logging IP time in the military I logged PIC time in my civilian logbook. If I was the cilot, even if I was a “senior” copilot babysitting a new PIC I logged SIC time. I was never questioned.

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  10. Kris Kortokrax on Oct 05, 2013

    The only caveat for SIC time is that either the airplane type certification or the rules under which the flight is conducted must require two pilots.

    See 61.51(f)

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  11. showalter.josh on Sep 20, 2016

    I am in the same boat as the above pilot. According to 61.159 (5) and specifically 61.160 for the R-ATP, why does my flight school time not count?

    Thanks,

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