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7 Answers

Strange IFR question

Asked by: 6783 views ,
Instrument Rating, Private Pilot

Yesterday I was on a cross country from concord to half moon bay airport kccr-khaf. I elected to pick up IFR clearance over the bay when I determined I would either have to receive IFR clearance and descend through cloud layer or get a Class B VFR clearance to maintain +1000 over clouds to reach KHAF which was reporting VFR. I opted to take an IFR clearance, Direct GOBBS and cleared GPS 12 Z approach. I descended into the clouds and while in IMC switched to local traffic.  a vfr Aircraft was using the opposing runway. I followed my lpv glidepath to 600 ft where I broke out of the low cloud layer both horizontally and vertically. (KHAF was clear skies). As I looked at the runway a vfr aircraft was landing the other direction. I immediately climbed to circling minimums and entered right traffic (right traffic pattern there) for 30.  I landed then called up flight services to cancel my ifr flight plan. After the situation was done I started checking myself as to whether or not I did the right thing Was it correct and okay to follow the lpv down to 600 then climb to circling mins before the missed approach point to circle to land? Although the asos was reporting vfr was this some really weird situation where the airports runway was 3/4 vfr and that north end (less than 2000 ft from clouds) IFR? Did I do the correct thing or should I have done a missed approach, cancelled IFR and approach from the south? That seemed a little bit extreme and unwarranted at the moment but Im curious what CFIs think Thank you

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7 Answers



  1. Ron Klutts on Sep 03, 2013

    Several things here. The GPS Z RWY 12 doesn’t have circling minimums, only the Y approach does, so I don’t believe your allowed to mix and match these, per your approach clearance.

    The sensor for the ASOS/AWOS may miss part of the airport, I don’t have the specs but I think its just measuring ceilings by looking straight up.

    This is the gray area where caution needs to be exercised when doing an approach in the opposite direction of VFR traffic. What were the winds? Did the wind direction clue you in that there could be opposite direction traffic to be on the look out for? Just asking as I think I might have asked for the Y approach instead that does allow for circling.

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  2. Anrboy on Sep 03, 2013

    The reason why I elected vfr to begin with were because winds where favoring 12. The vfr aircraft where using 30 to avoid imc. when I entered the pattern i was in clear vfr, there wasn’t any danger at all. just a really weird situation where vfr aircraft were approaching the airport with the wind to avoid the imc which i flew an approach through.

    Im not really sure where I got the circling min from. I wasn’t expecting to see other aircraft and was planning on 12. I think my thought was vfr conditions, fly pattern. I really have never thought about flying an approach in imc down to close to minimums and expect to see a vfr aircraft

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  3. John D Collins on Sep 03, 2013

    The airport was VFR and the other aircraft had every right to be there. VFR in Class G airspace is 1 mile and clear of clouds, so as long as the other aircraft had a visibility of 1 SM and remain clear of clouds, and remains below 700 AGL, it was in legal VFR conditions. In class E airspace above 700 AGL, the conditions for VFR change to 500 feet below, 1000 feet above, 2000 feet laterally from clouds and visibility has to be 3 SM.

    The RNAV Z does not have circling minimums and circling is not permitted or defined. However, you would be technically be VFR and could proceed under VFR rules as long as you stayed at or below 700 AGL.

    If you broke out right on the GS at the 396 Ft MSL DA, the runway threshold would still be just over a mile away, in fact 5468 feet away. Assuming it was clear from this point to the runway, the other aircraft could have used either runway legally and with sufficient room to line up on final to runway 12, remember his only responsibility is to remain at or below 700 AGL, clear of the clouds and flight visibility must be 1 mile or greater. There is no distance from clouds or ceiling required of the VFR aircraft, just that they can’t go into the clouds and must stay 700 AGL or lower.

    This means that he could have legally been in your windshield as you broke out. It is extremely important to realize that VFR aircraft may be flying in Class G airspace and it is incumbent on both you and the other pilot to make your presence known if you don’t want to meet up in a very ugly way that could ruin everybody’s day.

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  4. Wes Beard on Sep 03, 2013

    What was the actual approach clearance the ATC controller gave you?

    The only proper approach clearance for an untowered airport is “cleared for approach”. This means you are cleared to shoot any approach into that airport from that initial approach fix.

    The clearance should be Cessna N123AB direct GOBBS cleared for approach. It would be your choice to shoot either the Y or Z approach into runway 12. If GOBBS was also an IAF for an approach into runway 30 you could also commence that approach.

    With that said, ATC will tell you to switch to the CTAF frequency somewhere outside the FAF and report closing IFR to ATC or FSS when on the ground. At this point, you should make a call on the CTAF frequency informing those in the area what your intentions are. The other aircraft, if radio equipped, should also be reporting their position.

    If you are still in the clouds at the circling MDA and traffic is landing the opposite direction, the appropriate thing would be to go missed. You should know that based on listening to the CTAF. If the other aircraft is not using their radio (or not radio equipped) upon breaking out below the circling MDA and seeing an aircraft on the opposite runway I would go missed as I would not have prepared myself for the circle.

    This Is all theoretical as it assumes the cloud ceiling is constant and in your case it is not. I agree with John in this particular case, if you can remain VMC while climb back up to the circling MDA (and you were prepared to fly it) I might commence the circle and enter the proper traffic pattern for the other runway.

    As John pointed out, in Class G airspace traffic can be flying with 1SM visibility and clear of clouds. There is also no requirement for radio use. Be vigilant and “see and avoid” traffic especially in these cases.

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  5. Mark Kolber on Sep 04, 2013

    Wes said: “The only proper approach clearance for an untowered airport is “cleared for approach”. This means you are cleared to shoot any approach into that airport from that initial approach fix.”

    Do you have a reference for that? I have always been cleared for an identified approach to non-towered airports. There’s nothing in the FAR, AIM or ATC Handbook I’m aware of that suggests this is improper. Indeed, how can ATC give me direct to an IAF or IF for an approach to Runway 36 and I fly an approach to runway 18 where those fixes do not even exist?

    I know that the naked phrase “cleared approach” exists for situations where either there is only one approach to an airport or traffic is so light that there will be no separation issues no matter what the pilot does between the en route altitude and the runway. But in the ordinary course of instrument flight?

    As I said, never received a naked approach clearance (even to an airport with only one IAP) into a non-towered airport. So I’m definitely curious about the existence of something that says it’s improper.

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  6. Wes Beard on Sep 04, 2013

    Mark,

    Last week I attended an ATC ground school and misunderstood what the ATC instructor said. He stated that ATC would only clear an aircraft for the visual without using a runway assignment to a uncontrolled airport. Cessna 123AS cleared visual approach to Newman Airport. versus a controlled airport Cessna 123AS cleared visual runway 01 to Wichita.

    ATC will use “Cleared Approach” when they don’t care what approach the pilot commences at the airport. The only caveat is airports where there are radar fixes… ATC cannot issue the statement “Cleared Approach” to these airports in case the pilot selects an approach with a radar fix.

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  7. Mark Kolber on Sep 05, 2013

    Yep, that makes sense. ATC doesn’t assign runways at non-towered airports. That’s the whole idea of a non-towered airport. But it does clear aircraft for specific approaches.

    A charted IAP has a name and that’s what a pilot is cleared for. A visual approach does not, unless it’s a towered airport where there is a designated runway in use, in which case “cleared visual approach runway 10” is really just a heads-up on the expected landing clearance.

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