Procedure Turn

11 Answers

1. 
   

   
   

   Matthew Waugh on Apr 14, 2013

   There is an alternate holding fix published at HLN – so I’d use that in the absence of alternative ideas.

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2. 
   

   
   

   Nathan Parker on Apr 14, 2013

   “What is the expectation?”

   The “expectation” is the least important issue…it’s more important to understand what will keep you from hitting the rocks.

   Wherever you see a standard PT, you can always do a holding pattern, so you don’t need to see one published.

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3. 
   

   
   

   Dan Chitty on Apr 15, 2013

   Nathan,

   To make sure I understand your comment of which is good, after reviewing the AIM and Instrument Procedures Handbook, the PT outlined on the VOR-A to Halena is of the type that one can fly using any headings as long as the hold is on the protected maneuvering side becasue its depiction is “standard”. In other words, since the PT is not a ractrack or teardrop, the PT at Helana is standard.

   Is this correct?

   Also, is a ractrack PT the same as a hold- in- lieu PT?
   I ask becasue is the terms used separately but both are the same profile.

   Thank you for the feedback.

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4. 
   

   
   

   Mark Kolber on Apr 15, 2013

   Dan,

   Good job going to the AIM. The answer is there in 4-4-3.E.3:

   ==============================
   If no holding pattern is charted and holding instructions have not been issued, the pilot should ask ATC for holding instructions prior to reaching the fix. This procedure will eliminate the possibility of an aircraft entering a holding pattern other than that desired by ATC. If unable to obtain holding instructions prior to reaching the fix (due to frequency congestion, stuck microphone, etc.), hold in a standard pattern on the course on which you approached the fix and request further clearance as soon as possible. In this event, the altitude/flight level of the aircraft at the clearance limit will be protected so that separation will be provided as required.
   ==============================

   Since there is no formal published hold at HLN, other than to identify the alternate missed, shown on either the plan view or the en route chart (and multiple airways leading into it), unless ATC gave me holding instructions (I disagree with Nathan that the “expectation is the least important issue” – one can quibble about relative priority but you and ATC being on the same page so that there is no traffic conflict is about equal in importance to keeping out of the rocks) I would simple make a direct entry hold from whichever direction I approached the VOR.

   Yes, “racetrack” and HILO are interchangeable terms.

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5. 
   

   
   

   Nathan Parker on Apr 15, 2013

   ” as long as the hold is on the protected maneuvering side becasue its depiction is “standard””

   Correct. And I’m not sure what Mark means by making a direct entry from whatever direction he’s coming from; if that means using the present course as the inbound course of the hold, that wouldn’t necessarily put the aircraft within the protected area of the PT. If you were on an airway, probably not a huge deal in our little slow airplanes, but if you had a direct clearance to the VOR, all bets are off.

   Keep in mind that just because ATC gives you permission to do something, it doesn’t mean that it’s safe to do. They have limited knowledge about aircraft turn radii, descent gradients, and obstacle clearances. That’s “pilot stuff.”

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6. 
   

   
   

   Mark Kolber on Apr 15, 2013

   >if that means using the present course as the inbound course of the hold, that wouldn’t necessarily put the aircraft within the protected area of the PT.

   That’s what I mean. And it’s what the AIM specifically says. If there is no published hold and no holding instructions, “hold in a standard pattern on the course on which you approached the fix.”

   You must be on the protected side of the PT once down to 8200, but the chart instruction in this case is to “descend to 10,000 in HLN VORTAC holding pattern prior to departing outbound for procedure turn.”

   There’s no requirement to align the pre-procedure turn descending hold with the PT course. If there was, the chart would say so.

   That said, there’s an obvious operational advantage to using the HLN R086 for the descending hold. Once at 10,000, you can simply keep descending in the same holding pattern until you are at 8200 and fly the same inbound course all the way to the runway. That certainly makes things much simpler. Give my druthers, that’s probably what I would do – use the vertically long descent hold to get myself comfortably aligned with the FAC and descent until I could proceed onto the final approach segment. But I don’t think it’s required given the information on the chart.

   My concession to perhaps being wrong is a tip of the hat to Mat – if the hold being referred to is the alternate missed hold, then there’s a specific instruction which holding pattern to use. But if not, in this case, any will do.

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7. 
   

   
   

   Dan Chitty on Apr 15, 2013

   Mark and Nathan,

   Thank you for the excellent insight.

   In addition to AIM 4-4-3.E.3, I also consulted AIM 5-4-9. A.1.

   Based upon the feedback both of you have provided : Since no holding pattern is published over the VOR, my conclusion would be to coordiante with ATC and hold along the published PT inbound radial 086 (266 degree heading) and out bound 086 heading and fly a standard right turn holding pattern as I am descending to 10,000 feet. I say right turns because of the direction of the barb of which indicates the main protected area. The right turns would put me in the main protected area.

   Let me know your thoughts.

   Thank you

   Dan

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8. 
   

   
   

   Nathan Parker on Apr 15, 2013

   “There’s no requirement to align the pre-procedure turn descending hold with the PT course. If there was, the chart would say so. ”

   I think that’s an imprudent assumption. I don’t think your AIM reference is applicable, since that context is an aircraft flying at an assigned altitude at or above MIA, and not descending into terrain. At this location, it strikes me more as a TERPS issue than aircraft separation.

   The only assurance of maintaining terrain clearance is by using published altitudes and courses.

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9. 
   

   
   

   Dan Chitty on Apr 15, 2013

   Thank you for the information. All of the feedback is well appreciated.

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10. 
    

    
    

    Mark Kolber on Apr 16, 2013

    Dan, as I said, I would do the same as you suggest since it’s the most efficient and sensible method from an operational standpoint. It is also =clearly= a protected hold location.

    I also agree completely with Nathan’s comment that “At this location, it strikes me more as a TERPS issue than aircraft separation.” What I’m suggesting is that if TERPS required the hold be along a certain radial, the chart would say so.

    My lingering question is whether depicting the missed approach hold is “saying so.” This was an excellent question and my lingering doubts about the answer is leading me to make some other inquiries. I’ll let all know if I find out more.

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11. 
    

    
    

    Mark Kolber on Apr 17, 2013

    Nothing back from the FAA, but a friend sent me the Jepp chart. Unlike the FAA chart, the Jepp chart does not show the 086R hold at HLN in a separate box nor identify it as an “alternate missed approach hold.” Rather, Jepp simple shows it on the Plan View. What not conclusive, Jepps’ handling would at least suggest that the hold referred to in the not is indeed the hold on the 086R.

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