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11 Answers

Instrument rating long cross country requirement have to be filed IFR with FSS?

Asked by: 11231 views FAA Regulations, Instrument Rating

I cant really understand the wording used in the FAR for IR course flight training requirements, written as;

   (1) For an instrument airplane course: Instrument training time from a CFI-I on the approved areas of operation in paragraph (d) of this section including at least one cross-country flight that-

   (i) Is in the category and class of airplane that the course is approved for, and is performed under IFR.

And under paragraph  (d) (3) it states, Air traffic control clearances and procedures.

   Does it mean that the instrument rating cross country requirement have to be filed IFR with FSS or can be filed VFR but still performed and flown as an IFR with instructor simulating clearances and procedures?

Thanks

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11 Answers



  1. Kris Kortokrax on Dec 04, 2012

    The wording in your question comes from Appendix C of Part 141 and is similar to that in 61.65.

    The important wording is “is performed under IFR.” In order to operate under IFR in controlled airspace the following regulation applies. I would be next to impossible to perform the long cross country and the requisite approaches without entering controlled airspace.

    It has been my experience that many instrument instructors do not know how to word a proper clearance. Usually they just say “Cleared for the approach”. During your training you should file as often as possible and get some experience working with ATC.

    § 91.173 ATC clearance and flight plan required.
    No person may operate an aircraft in controlled airspace under IFR unless that person has –
    (a) Filed an IFR flight plan; and
    (b) Received an appropriate ATC clearance.

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  2. Qaner on Dec 04, 2012

    “performed” is the word i cant really figure out. I mean could the cross country flight be filed as a VFR flight but simulated as IFR by the instructor? Also with the approaches being requested as practice VFR approaches and not actual IFR with ATC clearances?
    Thanks

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  3. Matthew Waugh on Dec 05, 2012

    Some definitions of “perform”.
    1. to carry out; execute; do: to perform miracles.
    2. to go through or execute in the proper, customary, or established manner: to perform the marriage ceremony.
    3. to carry into effect; fulfill: Perform what you promise.
    4. to act (a play, part, etc.), as on the stage, in movies, or on television.
    5. to render (music), as by playing or singing.

    You want it to mean 4, whereas I think generally in this context it means 1 or 2 depending on your point of view.

    Why do you NOT want to file and fly your cross-country under IFR?

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  4. Sam Dawson on Dec 05, 2012

    If IMC is a problem due to aircraft equipment you may file IFR but put “VMC only” in the remarks (per FAA legal interpretation).

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  5. Kris Kortokrax on Dec 05, 2012

    Order 8900.1, Volume 5, Chapter 2, Section 9, Paragraph 5-439 allows an aircraft not certified for flight in IMC to be used for training and testing. However, there is a requirement for the aircraft to be equipped as specified in 91.205 for instrument flight. There is also a requirement for the PIC to be current to fly under IFR.

    There is no provision for using an aircraft with a problem due to aircraft equipment.

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  6. Bill Trussell on Dec 06, 2012

    The intent of the requirement is to properly equip the student applicant with knowledge and experience of having filed and flown an Instrument Cross Country at least once with an instructor prior to doing so on their own after the practical test. Hence the wording in the requirements to be “performed under IFR” which means instrument flight rules, which is different than IMC or Instrument meterological conditions, either actual or simulated.

    Any student should look forward to this experience. It is in many ways the highlight of the training for the rating. Many years ago I was required to file several flight plans for my Instrument practical test and fly them all in IMC. The examiner considered this the ultimate test for this rating.

    Find an aircraft that is equipped and qualified and fly it under IFR and be glad you did.

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  7. Sam Dawson on Dec 06, 2012

    Perhaps not the best wording to say “problem due to aircraft equipment”. However an aircraft need not be IFR certified to operate on an IFR flight plan.
    “Your fIrst question asks whether the prohibition on operation of a piston helicopter under
    Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) also prohibits the fIling of an instrument flight plan with the
    notation “VMC only” in the remarks section for instrument training purposes. The answer to your question is no, an aircraft does not need to be IFR certifIed to operate on an IFR flight plan, provided the aircraft remains in Visible Meteorological Conditions (VMC).”

    http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2010/Theriault.pdf

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  8. Kris Kortokrax on Dec 06, 2012

    Your quote stopped too soon. Had it continued, it would have included Legal’s reference to paragraph 5-439. This same text was in Order 8700 in the 1990’s when I operated a 141 helicopter training school and taught instruments and filed in IFR. It is the paragraph in the order which allows this, not Theriault. Theriault arrived in October 2010, long after we had been legally filing IFR in aircraft not certified for flight in IMC.

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  9. Sam Dawson on Dec 06, 2012

    While the regulations supporting this have been around for some time the interpretation was still not necessarily there. While this kind of training was done prior to the ruling there were some FAA Safety Inspectors and Designated Examiners who interpreted the FAA regulation differently and refused to accept this experience. The FAA Legal interpretation came down in favor of the interpretation that this training was acceptable.

    Sometimes their opinion does not come down on the side of widely accepted practices, such as their recent interpretation that a CFII can not teach unless he/she also holds the appropriate instructor class certificate. Though the regulations supporting their interpretation have been around for some time instructors “legally” taught with just a CFII for some time- heck, I’ve heard rumors of some who are still doing this.

    Same goes with NTSB legal decisions. There are many decisions that have set precedence and become the law of how a certain regulation is interpreted.

    There was an article I read once- but of course can’t find now- written by an aviation attorney that actually discussed the issue of the hierarchy of aviation law.

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  10. Sam Dawson on Dec 06, 2012

    Also to clarify- an aircraft does not need only be equipped IAW 91.205. There are other requirements and regulations- such as FAR 23 which requires aircraft certified for IFR to be equipped with pitot heat. Older airplanes certified IFR under CAR 3 do not have this requirement, though an aircraft certified VFR under CAR 3 that an owner/operator wishes to bring up to IFR would need to meet the FAR 23 IFR requirements.

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  11. Kris Kortokrax on Dec 07, 2012

    The second paragraph of the Theriault letter from October, 2010 contains no interpretative language concerning the question at hand. It merely refers the reader to 91.205(d) and paragraph 5-439 of the Order.

    When I had the school, I did have a “discussion” with an FAA Inspector who was unaware of the language in the Order. When I pointed out to him the contents of his Order, there was no longer a problem. What you need to understand is that FAA Inspectors and DPEs are not allowed to interpret regulations. That is the sole purview of the Office of Legal Counsel. If I ever had a question as to the meaning of a regulation, I would first go to Legal in DC and get the answer. I would then present that answer to the Inspector or DPE. No more problem.

    Regarding CFIIs, the practice was always allowed by paragraph 5-503 of the Order. The attorney who wrote the interpretation is obviously deficient in her knowledge concerning pilot vs. instructor certificates. 61.195(b) (1) requires appropriate category and class ratings on pilot and instructor certificates to instruct. However, if I am going to give instruction in a seaplane, according to Ms. Moore, I couldn’t because I hold no Airplane Single Engine Sea rating on my flight instructor certificate. No one does because the certificate states “Airplane Single Engine.” In the same fashion, if my instructor certificate reads “Instrument Airplane”, I do hold the appropriate category and class rating because the FAA does not issue ratings for “Instrument Airplane Single Engine Land.” Lynch did propose this in the 1997 rewrite, but the idea was discarded.

    Regarding pitot heat, Part 23 is a certification rule. Manufactures need to comply with this. Part 91 is the operating rule. No mention of pitot heat, except for Cat II operations. As I must be in VMC anyway, I wouldn’t anticipate the need for pitot heat.

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