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9 Answers

SOLO for CPL – can an instructor be on board?

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FAA Regulations

10 hours SOLO for CPL - 61.129 - a - 4

Do i have to do the 10 hours SOLO? or can i do the solo requirements with an instructor on board?

I did a 20 hour cross country flight in a C172RG over a couple of days with my instructor, and knocked out a bunch of the requirements, like 2 hour day dual x crty, and 2 hour night x ctry. 

I also fulfilled the long solo x ctry, and solo night (but the instructor was on board)

I guess I initially I thought the Solo meant that the I had to be the only one on board, but 61.129 - a - 4 seems to imply that an instructor can be on board.

Kind of confusing. Neither my instructor or I are sure.

 Hopefully someone can help.

 

 

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9 Answers



  1. Lucas on May 11, 2012

     
    As we all know the FAR’s leave a whole lot of grey, I mean if you look at a lawyers office there are probably 10 books on injuries to toe nails, 61.129 does say that you can act as a pilot in command with a flight instructor on board, but the way that an examiner is going to look at it is by using FAR 61.51 (e) (iv). What this means is that if you where flying a Falcon and was not rated for it you would have to have a flight instructor with you for the flights to meet the requirements, but you are rated for a C-172 RG (I assume) so the examiner is probably going to deny your application.
     
    Most flight schools that do the initial training on a multi aircraft have a provision to do the solo time with a flight instructor (mainly for insurance purposes). The examiner they use knows this and so does the local FSDO office, but again I never heard of this being allowed on a C-172 RG. I have done plenty of exams as a chief pilot under 141 examining authority and can tell you that I would not allow the dual done to be considered as solo or acting as PIC.
     
    Remember though, each examiner will interpret the regulations his own way, so you might want to contact him directly and ask him the question.
     
    Best of luck
     
    Lucas
     
    Chief Flight Instructor
     
    http://passfaaexams.com/
     

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  2. John D. Collins on May 11, 2012

    Lucas,
     
    I don’t agree.  In my opinion, the FAR is quite clear.  The pilot may log the time as PIC with an authorized instructor on board in lieu of peforming these tasks as solo.
    When the rule was proposed to be changed, the FAA wrote this in the NRPM:
     
    “(64) Proposal to amend the commercial pilot certification solo aeronautical experience requirements to allow the aeronautical experience to be performed either solo or while performing the duties of PIC with an instructor on board. 

    The FAA proposes to amend Sec. 61.129(a)(4), (c)(4), (d)(4), (e)(4), and (g)(2) to allow the commercial pilot certification aeronautical experience to be conducted either solo or while performing the duties of PIC with an instructor on board. Even though the commercial pilot certification aeronautical experience requirements for a multiengine airplane rating allow the aeronautical experience requirements to be conducted either solo or with an authorized instructor on board (see Sec. 61.129(b)(4)), the solo aeronautical experience requirements were purposely written differently for other aircraft categories. This is because comments received in response to Notice No. 95-11 (60 FR 41160, August 11, 1995) indicated that some  insurance policies prohibit persons who do not already hold the multiengine airplane category and class rating on their pilot certificate from flying solo in multiengine airplanes. 

    Since the adoption of Sec. 61.129, the FAA has learned that some operators of the other categories and classes of aircraft also have the same insurance policy restrictions. Many of these aircraft operators also believe the solo provisions for commercial pilot certification– multiengine airplane rating that permit the training to be performed solo or with an instructor to be on board while the applicant is performing the duties of PIC in a multiengine airplane is beneficial in teaching crew resource management. Some operators have said that they would be agreeable to their commercial pilot applicants practicing abnormal and emergency procedures if the applicant’s instructor was on board. Therefore, the FAA proposes to allow commercial pilot certification for the single-engine airplane, helicopter, gyroplane, powered-lift, and airship ratings to be performed either solo or while performing the duties of PIC with an authorized instructor aboard.” 

    The FAA adopted the rule as proposed. An examiner is bound by regulation to accept the time as counting towards meeting the requirements for the commercial rating.  If they rejected my student’s application for this bogus reason, we would be in discussion with the responsible FAA inspector to get it corrected.

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  3. Lucas on May 11, 2012

     
    Mr. Collins
     
    I agree with you and understand the FAA notices, but I have worked in many flight schools under several FSDO offices and what works for one doesn’t always for the other.
     
    I have also managed some flight schools and when the FAA came to my office and asked me to agree with them that my car was black (lets say it was white) I would always agree with them.
     
    I have always strived to let them leave with a smile, weather or not I agreed inside. I also always did the same with examiners.
     
    This might not be the best way to go about things but it is always better, in my opinion, to give someone a treat rather than a whack in the head, so I have always tried to anticipate a possible argument before having it and that’s why I would suggest that the flight instructor of the student contact the examiner first and ask him the question, after that its the students decision.
     
    Also I know that you will agree with me that the time you spend in an airplane by yourself, whether in training or not, is certainly invaluable and cannot be replaced with dual.
     
    Lucas
     

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  4. John D. Collins on May 11, 2012

    I am sure my style is different.  I have an excellent relationship with the local examiners and FSDO and make presentations for our state FAAST team. I always like to understand their opinion, but I won’t be bullied.  At the same time, I would agree that you have to pick your battles, not that there is a need for many battles in the first place.

     

    With respect to the usefulness of solo flight, there are very good arguments for it, but I have found that over use of solo flight is a significant contributor to higher training costs and average total times to earn a certificate. In my experience, students often have a reluctance to practice things they find uncomfortable and end up doing these tasks with an instructor on board anyway. If an instructor is on board as was the case with Ben, it could be a waste of money to repeat these cross countries and night requirements, unless he or his instructor deemed it necessary. If Ben has a good instructor, I would bet that he made good use of the time teaching CRM concepts and presenting various emergency scenarios, in addition to pointing out things that were useful for Ben.

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  5. John D. Collins on May 11, 2012

    Ben,

     

    You wrote “I guess I initially I thought the Solo meant that the I had to be the only one on board, but 61.129 – a – 4 seems to imply that an instructor can be on board.“

     

    That is correct, solo means that you are the only one on board, but the regulation permits solo or PIC with a CFI on board.  The regulation says (emphasis is mine): “Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board “.


    In otherwords, if you are solo, you log it as solo; if you are receiving dual instruction, you log it as PIC and as dual received.  You would not log solo flight time unless you are the sole occupant of the aircraft.  If you carried a passenger on the flight, then it would not be solo or PIC with a CFI on board, and therefore, although the flight would be legal (assuming you met all of the currency requirements and held a private pilot certificate), it could not count towards the requirement.

     

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  6. Kris Kortokrax on May 11, 2012

    Lucas,
    61.51(e)(iv) is irrelevant.  61.51(e)(iv) contains a list of requirements (A, B, C and D), all of which must be met in order to LOG PIC time.  (A) states the requirement for a Commercial or ATP certificate, which Ben does not possess.  (B) requires an “approved pilot-in-command training program”.  Approved training programs exist for 141, 142, 135, 121 etc., but not for 61.  Regarding examiners interpreting regulations their own way, I would hope that is not the case.  Only FAA Legal Counsel or the courts can offer interpretations of regulations.
     
    61.129 states that 10 hours of FLIGHT TIME may be credited towards the solo time requirement and towards the PIC time required.  It says nothing about logging PIC.  If the time is acquired with an instructor on board, it can be logged as flight time, and as PIC time if the pilot is rated for category/class as I presume Ben is (see 61.51 (e)).  However, if Ben were rated Private ASEL and seeking Commercial AMEL, he could not log PIC with an instructor on board in the multiengine airplane.

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  7. William Brynjo on Sep 07, 2013

    Sorry to bring up this topic again.

    I am a cfi at a school, and this school has the policy of having “solo with an instructor on board.” My question is weather the cfi who is onboard is allowed to record the time in their log book, the flight school has said we are not allowed. I realize I am not being PIC, but considering the only other person allowed onboard during these flights is a CFI (therefore I seam to be acting as a cfi) and in the case something goes wrong, I would have a responsibility to ensure the flight ended safely. Can I log the time?

    Ps I would like your opinion personally, but I believe the flight school would only believe a response from the faa, how would one go about getting a LOI?

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  8. Mark Kolber on Sep 08, 2013

    William, I provided my answer to this question in response to it being raised in another thread.

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  9. Mark Kolber on Sep 08, 2013

    BTW, I didn’t participate in the earlier discussion in this thread, but the FAA is clear that, unless the pilot is already rated in the aircraft the “performing-the-duties” rules in 61.129 do not authorize logging of PIC time by the student, unless, of course, the pilot is already rated for the aircraft.

    IOW,

    A private AMEL doing a commercial AMEL may log the performing-the-duties time as PIC under the basic sole manipulator rule

    but

    A private AMEL doing a commercial MEL may not log the performing-the-duties time as PIC.

    Reference: 2013 Crowe interpretation: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2013/crowe-palmbeachhelicopters%20-%20(2013)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

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