PPL simulated instrument

13 Answers

1. 
   

   
   

   CFI Academy on Oct 30, 2011

   No it is not a reasonable request, and you shouldn’t. The 3 hours required by PPL is not even IR training. Any CFI (without CFII rating) can do this 3 hours. For this type of training you need to complete the IR rating after.

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   Daniel Hayes on Oct 30, 2011

   I was hoping to get a response that was a little more open to the idea. There was an article in AOPA pilot where the author was faced with inadvertent flight into IMC and his CFI had taken him into IMC. The author was quite glad that this point had been drilled in. I do agree that it would be unfair to ask an instructor without a CFII rating to do this, however the instructor who has been teaching me does hold a CFII certificate.

   http://m.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2011/november/neveragain_murky_michigan.html

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   Wes Beard on Oct 30, 2011

   I don’t necessarily agree with CFI Academy.  I think it is important for a student pilot to know what it feels like inside a cloud and how easily things can get away.  Will I spend all their “flight by reference to instrument” time in the clouds?  No.  But a good 5 minutes of letting them fight what it feels like to be spatially disoriented is a good thing.  The rest of the training then has a much greater value.  I also give each of my private students a copy of “178 seconds to live”.  Many of my students have crashed is such a way (inside a simulator) to prove the accuracy of this statement.
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXzYZjpoz_E
   http://www.aerosafe.net/page6.html

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   Nathan Parker on Oct 30, 2011

   “Is it reasonable to ask a CFI to go into IMC to do the PPL simulated instrument component?”
    
   I think it’s a perfectly fine thing to do.  Still, for a student with NO hood time, actual IMC would probably be overwhelming.  I’d make sure he’d had an hour or two before going into actual.

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   Daniel Hayes on Oct 31, 2011

   Thank you for your opinions, I have seen the 178 seconds to live video. I have 1.5 hours of hood time in VMC so far.

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6. 
   

   
   

   Kris Kortokrax on Oct 31, 2011

   Daniel,
   First you need to look at what is to be taught at this level.  61.109(a)(3) states:
   “3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight”
    
   From the Airplane Flying Handbook, Chapter 16, page 16-13:
   “Accident statistics show that the pilot who has not been trained in attitude instrument flying, or one whose instrument skills have eroded, will lose control of the airplane in about 10 minutes once forced to rely solely on instrument reference. The purpose of this section is to provide guidance on practical emergency measures to maintain airplane control for a limited period of time in the event a VFR pilot encounters IMC conditions. The main goal is not precision instrument flying; rather, it is to help the VFR pilot keep the airplane under adequate control until suitable visual references are regained.”
    
   Flying in IMC at this stage will likely be less productive because you will be overwhelmed by the communications and procedures and not concentrating on the task at hand, i.e. maintain control of the airplane.  On pages 16-14 & 16-15 you will see that at this level it is suggested that you concentrate on the attitude indicator.  You should not be trying to develop a scan of the panel as you will later on during instrument training.
    
   Notwithstanding the preceding information, it is certainly reasonable to request a flight into IMC.  If your instructor is willing, no problem.  It would be just as reasonable to request that your instructor provide instruction on spin recovery.  It is not required for your certificate, but it would certainly be enlightening.
    
    
    

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7. 
   

   
   

   Matthew Waugh on Oct 31, 2011

   I do not think it is reasonable to ask a CFI to conduct the PPL required training in IMC.
    
   I do think it is reasonable to ask your CFI to expose you to IMC. But keep in mind that to enter IMC you’ll be on an IFR flight plan, so unless you’re an instrument natural your CFI is going to be protecting their certificate a LOT, so you may do less flying than you hope.
    
   Finally – there are only a few parts of the world where reliable, benign, IMC is available. So I wouldn’t make getting this experience a gating item.

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   Bob Watson on Nov 01, 2011

   One point I haven’t seen raised here is the option to go up for dual instruction AFTER you get your license. You might need the three hours just to learn how to keep the rubber-side down enough to pass your practical test. I don’t know. At this point your goal should be learning what you need for your license, but that doesn’t mean you should stop going up for dual instruction after you pass your check ride.
    
   If you can work it into your training (i.e. your skills, your CFI, and the weather all cooperate), it’s a great eye-opener. If not, it’s not a show-stopper for your license and something you can pick up after your ticket.
    
   In addition to flight in IMC, there are lots of other things to learn after your private license: complex airplanes, tailwheel (or tricycle, depending on what you learned in), mountain flying, aerobatic/really unusual attitudes, high-altitude, etc. The list is very long (and that’s not even counting additional ratings, categories, classes, etc.)

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   CFI Academy on Nov 01, 2011

   Once again,

   Partial knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge at all.
   Focus more on proper weather briefing, and how to obtain and use it, so you never end up “inadvertantly” in IMC conditions to begin with.
   To fly in IMC requires full 40 (or 35 if 141 course) hours of flight training and required ground training Minimum.

   You see, my worry is that once your CFI breaks you in to IMC conditions, and you get a feel and hang for it, your personal minimums (as far as visibility/clouds) will be raised by yourself, and you will have a lot more confidence, and you will probably have a higher chance of taking additional risk as a Private Pilot.
   I knew this one Private Pilot who after obtaining a few IFR lessons bought himself a hand held GPS and would fly over airports with fog layers and would circle down to the runway, using that GPS. Reason being the same as above, personal minimums were raised, and the “fear” of the unknown went away.
   It’s kind of like, teach someone how to shoot a gun. Just because you know how to shoot doesn’t necessarily mean you have combat experience. But you may feel like you are ready.
   If a CFI takes you into IMC, there are only 2 outcomes – one, you will get the hang of it, and you will be able to keep the right side up. Result will definitely be higher confidence to fly in lower/marginal visitbility conditions. Two, you might not be able to keep the right side up (spatial disorientation), which would make that particular training flight “dangerous” and unnesesarily risky.
   If you want to learn how to fly safely in IMC, go through the entire training and get an IR rating, and not just a lesson or 2.
   Just my 2 cents.

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    Daniel Hayes on Nov 01, 2011

    I can easily see where you are coming from with that point of view. My intentions are definitely not to enter IMC so I can gain experience and go into them without an instrument rating. I also see where the VFR pilot might not think that IMC is a big deal until they have a bad experience with it. In the AOPA article, the author also sights lowering his personal minimums with weather and aircraft as a contributing factor to the incident. Like some of the previous comments stated the instrument training involved with private pilot certificate is not precision, it’s designed so the pilot can keep the shiny side up and the greasy side down. Thanks for your comment.

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11. 
    

    
    

    Nathan Parker on Nov 01, 2011

    BTW, I applaud the OP for taking responsibility for his own training by 1) understanding what his training requirements are and 2) conducting his own research about how to increase the value of that training.
     
    Any incremental training or knowledge is inherently a good thing and should never be denied to someone “for his own good.”

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    Brian on Nov 02, 2011

    I see nothing wrong with this. I’d set it aside for post private work for the same reason I’d wait on spin training (It’s not a requirement). That said, I would put it on top of my list for training to get as soon as practical following the private certificate. While it may not be financially feasible to pursue an entirely new rating immediately following your private, these smaller goals provide good recurrent training.
     
    Consider too, there is typically a lul between private and instrument in part 61 to build XC time. Turn a few XC flights into spin and IMC introduction training.
     
    Personal tip for the IMC stuff: Let the instructor handle all departure/arrival procedures and communications. Set your focus on controlling the aircraft at cruise and through basic maneuvering for three reasons: First, they are the skills necessary to get out of IMC should you inadvertently enter it. Second, they provide good fundamentals to build on during your instrument training. Finally, many well written instrument curriculums start with focus on the cruise phase of flight due to reason number two. 
     
    Finally, some thoughts about, “if you teach them, they will gain confidence to do something stupid..” This rests solely in the pilots attitude. As far as I’m concerned additional preparation, experience, and/or training is never, has never, and will never be the problem.
     
    The problem is either one of the seven hazardous attitudes being inadequately addressed and/or lack of experience. Get the experience! Use it wisely. And work on becoming an intrapersonal thinker with regards to those 7 bad attitudes. 
     
    Happy flying 🙂 
     
    PS If anyone cares, analyzing and attempting to correct my driving habits helped me tremendously in discovering and working to guard against my hazardous attitudes. I’m anti-authority and impulsive, while to a lesser extent, macho.

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    Kris Kortokrax on Nov 03, 2011

    Let’s now confound the issue even more.
    As of October 31, 2011, 14 CFR 61.65 was amended to allow one to concurrently apply for a private pilot certificate and an instrument rating.  Also, Appendix M was added to Part 141 to create a concurrent Private-Instrument course.
     
    It is now possible to obtain the experience for the private pilot certificate and the instrument rating and apply simultaneously for certification for both.  The 50 hours of cross country PIC required by 61.65 may be satisfied by using up to 45 hours of cross country time performing the duties of a PIC with an authorized instructor on board (47 hours for helicopter).
     
    Not sure who lobbied for this change, but it is my opinion that it is another step towards dumbing down the requirements to become a pilot.  The time spent with an authorized instructor in the airplane contributes little toward the seasoning of the newly rated (or student) pilot.  The instructor is ultimately going to serve as a “security blanket” for the person performing the duties of PIC under his supervision.  The decisions made by the student, if the student actually chooses to make them, will always be subject to being overruled by the instructor.
     
    Granted, in the past, a newly rated pilot could still log PIC time with an instructor on board, although many would not elect to spend the extra money to have an instructor ride along.

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