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10 Answers

Can ATP Give Instruction? FAR61.167

Asked by: 30209 views FAA Regulations

Can a ATP give flight instruction even if his/her cfi is not current? 61.167 seem to think so. 

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10 Answers



  1. John A Lindholm on Apr 06, 2011

    Yes….. an ATP can give instruction in an aircraft requiring a “type” rating if current and qualified in the aircraft.  The same pilot could not give instruction in a light aircraft without getting their CFI current.
     
    Most common example would be a “3 bounce n go” checkout for a non-rated co-pilot.

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  2. Wes Beard on Apr 06, 2011

    An ATP rated pilot can give instruction in “air transportation service”.
     
    Part 1.1 defines Air Transportation as “interstate, overseas, or foreign air transportation or the transportation of mail by aircraft”.
     
    With that said, an ATP rated pilot can give instruction in Part 121 and Part 135 operations but not part 91 operations.  The instruction can be in any aircraft on the certificate holders list; it doesn’t have to be just aircraft requiring a type rating.

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  3. Neil Hoy on Apr 06, 2011

    Woudnt a corporate operation be considered Air Transportation though. Some corporations run a part 91 operation. The pilot is getting paid to transport paying passengers by the corporation that is an Air Transportaion Service and it is interstate per 1.1

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  4. Wes Beard on Apr 06, 2011

    Neil… good question. Although my source is not regulatory in nature, John Lynch in his Part 61 FAQs state the ATP pilot has to use an approved training program from either their 121 or 135 certificate holder. Both the instructor and the student have to be employed by the certificate holder. Part 91 operations don’t have approved training programs.

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  5. John A Lindholm on Apr 06, 2011

    Wes…. respectfully, you are wrong.   Training for qualification or currency in an aircraft that requires a type rating can be done by an ATP rated in that aircraft.  There is no requirement that the training person have a CFI.  Also, there is no CFI sign-off required to take a “type” check ride.  There must be a training record, and if done in-house, it may be from an ATP rated pilot for that aircraft with no CFI certificate.  Most often this is accomplished by someone like Flight Safety, etc.
     
    A bit of trivia for you.  John Lynch and I were in the same Falcon 10 class at Flight Safety about 30 years ago.  As I recall, he was an ex-Army helicopter pilot and the largest fixed wing he had flown was an Aztec.  I spent many hours showing him how to work his way through jet performance charts, etc.  AND… I would bet a week’s pay that most of the instructors at that facility did not have their CFI…. but they all were ATP typed in the aircraft they were instructing in.

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  6. Wes Beard on Apr 07, 2011

    Interesting thoughts John.  Do you have references that I can read to verify this information?  I have done some more reading and come to this conclusion:
     
    My previous post has the definition of air transportation.  This definition uses the word “interstate” in it.
     
    Interstate Air Transportation (§1.1) means the carriage by aircraft of persons or property as a common carrier for compensation or hire…
     
    AC 120-12A There are four elements in defining a common carrier; (1) a holding out of a willingness to (2) transport persons or property (3) from place to place (4) for compensation.
     
    With these three definitions in hand, it becomes clear that an ATP who is instructing in air transportation services must operate under the training program of their Part 121 or Part 135 operation.  This specifically precludes ATP pilots giving instruction to a commercial pilot seeking to upgrade to an ATP certificate under Part 61/91.  It also does not give permission for an ATP to give instruction for the other pilot to meet the recency of experience requirements.
     
    I agree with John L. that a CFI does not have to sign the recommmending instructor block on the 8710 application for an initial ATP or adding a type rating onto their certificate at any level.  See §61.63(d) and §61.157(b).  Both of those FAR’s use the wording authorized instructor.
     
    Authorized Instructor (§61.1(b)(2)(iii)) means A person authorized by the Administrator to provide ground training or flight training under SFAR No. 58, or part 61, 121, 135, or 142 of this chapter when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with that authority.
     
    Part 121, 135 and 142 instructors have to be designated as instructors in their certificate holders training programs.  For example Training Centers, like FlightSafety, must have ATP rated pilots for type certificated airplanes (but can be a commercial pilot for non type rated airplanes) and for courses of training leading to an ATP privilege (§142.47).  The same is true for 135 instructors (§135.338) and 121 instructors (§121.412).  Part 121 and 135 certificate holders have the option to use a training center for their training, testing and checking requirements (§135.324)
     
    In the end, an ATP pilot can instruct under 121, 135 or 142 when they are authorized under the certificate holders training program.  The authorization is limited to the courses approved by the Administrator for that certificate holder and must be with pilots working for the same certificate holder.  I have a lot of friends who work for FlightSafety and a lot of them never had a CFI certificate… some have let them expire.   They are an authorized instructor because FlightSafety has added them as an instructor in their training programs.  So in that regard, I agree with John L. again.
     
    This interpretation agrees with John Lynch in the Part 61 FAQ’s and others forums answers to this question when I searched for ATP privilege and air transportation services.

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  7. Kris Kortokrax on Oct 19, 2011

    From John’s Q&A:
    QUESTION:  Does the logbook endorsement required by § 61.157(b)(2) for a type rating at the ATP certification level [or § 61.63(d)(3) for a type rating at the commercial pilot certification level] have to be given by a certificated flight instructor with the appropriate type rating on the flight instructor’s pilot certificate?  In this particular question, the training is not being performed under an air carrier training program nor under Part 142.  The training is being performed in a Gulfstream G‑IV and the person giving the training only holds an ATP certificate with an Airplane Multiengine Land and G‑IV type rating.
     
    ANSWER: Ref. § 61.1(b)(2) and § 61.195(e); Since you qualified your question to remove the air carrier and Part 142 training option [meaning See § 61.1(b)(2)(iii)], then my answer is the flight instructor would have to hold a Flight Instructor Certificate with an Airplane Multiengine and Instrument-Airplane ratings.  The flight instructor would also have to hold a G‑IV type rating on his/her pilot certificate. 
    {Q&A‑581}
     
    In one case, there is indeed a requirement for an endorsement to add a type rating.
     
    To bring the question down to earth a bit, if a person were to buy an Eclipse or Cessna Citation Mustang (a more likely scenario than a G-IV), and for whatever reason did not want to attend FlightSafety or another 142 training center and is not participating in a 121 or 135 training program, then the person providing instruction and the endorsement required by 61.63(d)(2) or 61.157(b)(2) would need to possess a valid flight instructor certificate.

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  8. Martin Griggs on Feb 02, 2012

    SHORT SIMPLE ANSWER:  AN ATP may give instruction in the aircraft that he/she is currently rated in and authorized by the PART certificate holder to give instruction under their certificate.

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  9. Pete Kurdziel on Nov 07, 2012

    As an ATP ASEL can i give filght instruction in Part91?
    That is, can I sign off my Friend for his BFR in his Bonanza?
    My CFI is expired.

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  10. John Ricci on Dec 04, 2017

    That is my question too. I don’t think you can. Can you tell me what you found out? I know this post is over a decade old.

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