ILS Miss app steeper bank or slower climbout??(updated)

8 Answers

1. 
   

   
   

   Paul H. on Dec 08, 2020

   I’m not aware of any regulation limiting IFR pilots to standard rate turns.

   The Instrument Flying Handbook, chapter 7, says that in IMC any rate of turn more rapid than standard rate is considered a “steep turn.” It then goes on to explain how to do a steep turn by reference to instruments. Since the FAA is teaching us how to do it, I guess they don’t prohibit it.

   That said, steep turns in IMC can disorient a pilot very easily. Doing them during climbout from a missed approach probably isn’t the best idea. Keep in mind that for anything the FAA doesn’t specifically prohibit, they always have the catchall “careless or reckless” operation they can get you with.

   I strongly suspect that if you ask your CFII about that approach, or even post the approach plate here for people to look at, then you will learn that there is some procedure for entering the hold using normal IMC maneuvers.

   Remember, these Instrument Approach Procedures (IAPs) aren’t just for slow, little trainer planes. They’re for big, fast planes too. I understand that you may be flying something super fast for your instrument training, but chances are that planes which are even faster, and make even steeper standard rate turns than your training plane, also use that IAP and that published missed procedure.

   So, the direct answer to your question is YES, it is legal to do a turn at a rate faster than standard rate in IMC, but that comes with a couple of cautions: First, it’s not the smartest thing in the world to be doing, especially when you’re low and slow on climbout from a missed approach in the soup. That’s a known recipe for a stall/spin or graveyard spiral mishap. Second, the real issue here is most likely that you need a bit of help understanding the missed approach procedure and hold entry published on that approach plate.

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2. 
   

   
   

   Mark Kolber on Dec 09, 2020

   I agree with Paul, but I am very curious to see this IAP which *requires* steep turns,

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3. 
   

   
   

   Student_4314 on Dec 09, 2020

   I now upload the app plate I mentioned

   https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/2013/pdf/00643IL28R.PDF

   KMOD IlS 28R

   The publishwd miss Im talking about.

   Thank you cfis!!

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4. 
   

   
   

   awair on Dec 09, 2020

   “ MISSED APPROACH: Climb to 1500 then climbing right turn to 2000 direct
   MOD VOR/DME and hold.”

   I can possibly see a cause for confusion, but can’t your CFII clarify?

   IAPs, including the Miss, are constructed for the worst case basis. In this case, it is assumed you are still climbing to 1500’ as you pass MOD, upon reaching, start a right turn to go back to the VOR.

   If you have already reached 1500’, enter the hold climbing to 2000’.

   If, and I think this may be the confusion, you cross MOD at 1499’ – then make a right turn at 1500’ back to the VOR. It doesn’t have to be steep – it will just be a full circle.

   No problem – easier hold entry!

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5. 
   

   
   

   Student_4314 on Dec 09, 2020

   I understand Published Missed Approach instruction as it says.

   climb to 1500 and climbing right turn to 2000′ and direct to VOR and hold

   The thing is that If I climb out to 1500′ it is too close from VOR already for say like 1~1.5NM from VOR.

   It is because the Missed Approach point is so close from the Runway and the VOR is inside the Airport, end of the Runway.

   Too close when I’m at 1500~2000feet.

   I could make holding patter if I don’t mind awful entry.
   However I need to get over on the VOR when I enter the holding patter for my checkride.

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6. 
   

   
   

   John D Collins on Dec 09, 2020

   I don’t see a need to use more than a standard rate turn to fly the missed approach. As part of your planning, you could plan to do the missed approach climb at a lower power setting as long as you meet the climb gradient of 200 feet/NM or better to get to 1500 feet. At 120 Knots, standar rate is 18 degrees of bank and the radius of turn is 0.65 NM. So you can easily position yourself so that you start the turn a few NM past the VOR. The hold entry is protected for quite a lot of airspace and on the teardrop entry, it won’t matter much if you don’t hit the VOR dead center on entry.

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7. 
   

   
   

   Paul H. on Dec 09, 2020

   Thank you for posting the approach plate.

   So, you go missed at 291 MSL. Then you climb, straight ahead toward The MOD VOR.

   In a training plane, you will probably fly past the MOD VOR before you hit 1,500 MSL. This is NO PROBLEM. Your VOR needle will flip from “TO” to “FROM,” and you just keep flying your same heading, straight out, until you get to 1,500 feet. You will have reverse sensing at this point, but it’s probably not worth twisting the OBS to get normal sensing, as you’re going to be turning again soon.

   The dotted line showing the missed approach path even shows you that it’s ok to keep going straight out. This is expected.

   Once you hit 1,500 feet, start a standard rate turn to the right, and continue climbing to 2000 feet.

   Now you’re going to have to estimate the heading at which you will be pointed, roughly, back at MOD and twist your OBS to that heading. You might have to search a bit with the OBS until the needle starts to come in.

   Just keep your turn going, at standard rate, until you are pointed at the MOD VOR (heading and OBS match, allowing for wind correction angle).

   When you cross MOD for the second time, do the appropriate hold entry. My guess is that it would end up being a tear drop entry to the hold, but that’s going depend on winds and how far out you are when you hit 2,000 MSL and start turning.

   I think this looks like a tough procedure. Getting turned around and aligned to re-cross MOD for the hold entry will be challenging without GPS. It would be easy to lose situational awareness of exactly where you are. A pilot could be task saturated with trying to level off at 2,000 while keeping the turn going and finding the proper heading and OBS setting to track back to MOD, basically all at the same time. To make matters worse, you’re going to be reporting your missed and getting hold instructions while you’re doing this.

   It’s much easier when you can just track a radial for 10 or 12 miles away from the airport. That gives the opportunity to tell ATC to wait with your hold instructions while you get leveled off at altitude and established on the outbound track to the hold. If I had to shoot this approach myself, I would ask for the alternate missed approach and hold at LIN. I honestly think that attempting the missed procedure to hold at MOD could overwhelm me without an autopilot.

   Still, there’s no reason to exceed standard rate in any of the turns. Maybe practice this one on a simulator if you have one available or ask your CFII to walk you through it a few times in the airplane. That’s what I would do if I thought I might be faced with this approach in real life.

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8. 
   

   
   

   Russ Roslewski on Dec 11, 2020

   When procedures are designed, they are based on a certain minimum performance level of the aircraft (and pilot and navigation capabilities). One of these minimum performance levels is the climb gradient, which on a standard missed approach is set at 200 feet per nm. This is a very shallow climb for most aircraft on most days.

   Typically, designing for the lowest-performing aircraft means that the procedure is EASIER, and SAFER, and in all ways BETTER, for higher-performing aircraft. However, in rare cases (like this one), that turns out to not be the case.

   On this procedure, if you climb at the minimum gradient, you end up well past the VOR before getting to 1500 and turning around. So you have lost of room to make the turn. However, if you climb at a higher rate, or if you start your missed approach climb earlier, or at a higher altitude, or anything else that puts you higher than the lowest-performing aircraft would be, it does make it more difficult to fly.

   If, for example, you cross the VOR at 1400, you’re still expected to continue straight ahead until reaching 1500 before turning right. That’s only a short distance past the VOR, which means that there really is no good way to turn around and go direct to the VOR – at any constant bank angle, and assuming no wind, you’d end up nearly making a complete 360 degree circle before getting back to the VOR, which can be mentally confusing without a moving map display. Of course, you’re likely then at 2000, so once you do cross the VOR you could just do a direct entry into the holding pattern.

   But again, as this is unusual and not quite what we’d expect from the depiction, it could easily be quite confusing in actual IMC, in a minimally-equipped airplane.

   So you plan ahead and do the best you can. The worse the weather is at your destination, the more important it is for you to do a thorough preflight briefing, including how you’re going to go missed.

   On this approach, for example, let’s say you get to 1500 BEFORE crossing the VOR (but past the MAP) – what are you going to do then, make a right 360 back to the inbound course, then proceed direct to the VOR? That’s certainly not quite what was intended on the procedure, but certainly is exactly what a strict wording would have you do.

   What if you reach 1500 before the MAP? You cannot turn before the MAP (basic concept of Instrument flying), so you continue climbing, and reach 2000 at some point. Do you just go ahead and fly straight to the VOR and hold? That would clearly work, but again isn’t quite what the procedure says to do.

   Neither of these scenarios is unreasonable. If you cross the FAF at 1800 and start down final but have a problem along the way and decide to go missed, you’re not going to go all the way down to DA/MDA before starting the missed. Rather, you may begin the climb at 1000 MSL or so, and still have a few miles to go to the MAP.

   Figure this out on the ground before you fly.

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