IFR clearance: Radar vectors then as filed

7 Answers

1. 
   

   
   

   Mark Kolber on Feb 05, 2019

   The lack of answers so far might indicate that it hard to discuss the situation without the full clearance, both filed and stated. “Radar vectors, then as filed” is generally “radar vectors to [a fix or waypoint], then as filed.”

   From your choices, the only absolutely correct on 100% of the time is:

   “Ask the busy controller from the ground to clarify my departure clearance” before ever leaving that frequency.

   +1 Votes 1 Votes  0 Votes

2. 
   

   
   

   EricB on Feb 06, 2019

   Thanks for your answer, Correction I was going to KGIF and my exact Flight plan filed was : KTPF LAL KGIF 3000ft
   and I received this clearance: “ Cleared to KGIF radar vectors LAL then as filed Alt 3000 dept frequency 119.9 squawk XXXX“. So after take-off runway 22 as I was enabled to reach the Atc what to do ?
   Turn heading 090 direct LAL and climb 3000ft into Class Bravo ? Using AVEF ( as assigned as vectored, as expected as filed) ?

   Thanks

   0 Votes 0 Votes  0 Votes

3. 
   

   
   

   Mark Kolber on Feb 06, 2019

   It’s typical to get an initial heading to fly after takeoff, even if just “fly runway heading.” And under IFR, “Cleared into class B” is not really an issue.

   But to the point of your lost comm scenario, 91.185 would have to turn to LAL. “If being radar vectored, by the direct route from the point of radio failure to the fix, route, or airway specified in the vector clearance.” That also makes sense in this scenario due to the probable traffic flow in an out of TPA.

   the remaining issue is whether this was “lost comm.” An inability to communicate with ATC due to frequency congestion doesn’t quite fit the equipment failure mold we usually think of. It’s not that you and ATC can’t communicate. It’s just that you aren’t at the moment. ATC can tell everyone to shut up. TRACON can call you even if you can’t get a word in yourself. Not raising you could just mean your initial heading is fine. Or they forgot you.

   That makes this scenario a judgement call. More a discussion of what should I do that what am I required to do. Different pilots might answer tha question differently.

   0 Votes 0 Votes  0 Votes

4. 
   

   
   

   Jeff on Feb 06, 2019

   I don\’t see an ODP for this airport (however runways 4, 36 are NA) so therefore departure from this airport (in your example runway 22) would be classified as a \”Diverse Departure\” as defined in the AIM 5-2-8-b-1. Assuming you can meet/exceed a 200ft/NM climb gradient (I hope so at sea level…), you cross the departure end of the runway (DER) at 35\’, continue a straight climb to 400\’ AGL then you can turn in any direction lacking any other superseding instruction from ATC.
   **** Very important: This only applies to an airport that has at least one IAP published, indicating it has been surveyed for an obstacle clearance surface. (e.g. the green and blue airports on a low enroute chart, this DOES NOT apply to the brown ones–depart those only if you can maintain awesome VFR until reaching the MVA or MSA for that area)

   Not sure why per 5-2-7-b that you were not given an initial RV, and as previous posters have noted, now you know you should ask for one while still on the ground just to be extra cautious.
   (5-2-7-b. Departure Control utilizing radar will normally clear aircraft out of the terminal area using DPs via radio navigation aids. When a departure is to be vectored immediately following takeoff, the pilot will be advised prior to takeoff of the initial heading to be flown but may not be advised of the purpose of the heading.)
   My next statement is \”textbook only\” and an IFR pilot must always maintain situational awareness and common sense. However, airspace does not have the same considerations for an IFR pilot that we had as VFR-only pilots. When VFR, we have to be \”cleared into Class Bravo\” airspace. When IFR (including IFR in VMC) you\’re already cleared into Bravo airspace by virtue of your original clearance. Same with Class D or C although no specific \”clearance\” from ATC is needed and again you\’re not VFR (and again, VFR is not equal to IFR while in VMC for this purpose)
   Therefore, if you\’re not technically lost comm per 91.185 still follow the idea of a Diverse Departure and absent an RV/initial heading (which now you know you should have received on the ground) turn, in your case, direct LAL VOR after reaching 400\’ AGL, (you\’re still in Class G by the way until 699\’ AGL), continue your climb to 3000 then continue as filed. If your radios work, they will talk to you if they need you to do something, otherwise they\’re expecting you to do just that.

   Don\’t go wandering all over trying to avoid airspace (excluding Prohibited for sure and possibly Restricted if VMC) unnecessarily due only to regulatory reasons. Use common sense and obviously avoid traffic in VMC.

   This following is a concept that I learned will after I got my IR and it was one of the greatest \”a-ha\” moments of my flying career and it is this (some will alternate laughing and muttering \”duh\”…): The entire IFR system is technically designed for you, as a Part 91 operator, to depart in 0/0 IMC at either a towered or non-towered (read void time) field, fly entirely in IMC and land at your destination right at minimums.
   Granted there is a ton of real-world factors, common sense and shortcuts that make this rather rare from a practical standpoint, but it is nonetheless true. And if you armchair fly various flight plans and routes in the comfort of your own home while constantly playing the \”what would I do if my radios failed here…and here…and here…) while applying 14 CFR 91 and the AIM, you\’ll find it works as promised.

   Which leads me back to the original post. My opinion is that we don\’t spend enough time with our IR students explaining departure procedures, including and especially diverse departures and textual ODPs, that it leads to holes in knowledge and practice. This is true especially when we fly and train out of towered airports.
   //stepping down off of soapbox. There is much more to this and I have certainly not covered it all but this should give you a fun and enlightening start.

   +1 Votes 1 Votes  0 Votes

5. 
   

   
   

   EricB on Feb 07, 2019

   Thank-you very much for your very useful reply. I red it twice because it’s full of informations. I think I have the answer to my question. First, double check with Atc if I have a doubt before takeoff and class bravo is not an issue when flying IFR when I have a clearance.

   0 Votes 0 Votes  0 Votes

6. 
   

   
   

   John D Collins on Feb 07, 2019

   KTPF is a non towered airport in class G airspace. Class E begins at 700 AGL and Class B at 1200 MSL. Runway 22 departure end is only about a half mile from class D to the surface. This is complex airspace and in addition to receiving a clearance, you would also obtain an IFR release. That release would be coordinated with the other facilities in the area. Your clearance should have included an instruction to hold for release. Regardless, I would expect that if an initial heading was required, it would be communicated no later than the release instructions. In my experience, ATC would have asked what runway you were going to use for departure and would have either told you to maintain runway heading or assign you a heading to be flown.

   Here is what the controller\’s manual, order 7110.65X says:

   5−8−2. INITIAL HEADING
   a. Before departure, assign the initial heading to be flown if a departing aircraft is to be vectored immediately after takeoff.

   Here are the instructions that would apply, note that c.1.(c) applies at KTPF
   4−3−2. DEPARTURE CLEARANCES
   …
   c. Departure Procedures.
   1. Specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial heading to be flown after takeoff as follows:
   (a) Locations with Airport Traffic Control Service−Specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial
   heading as necessary, …
   (b) Locations without Airport Traffic Control Service, but within a Class E surface area – specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial heading if necessary. …
   (c) At all other airports− Do not specify direction of takeoff/turn after takeoff. If necessary to
   specify an initial heading to be flown after takeoff, issue the initial heading so as to apply only within controlled airspace.

   So the release would need to use relevant portions of the following phraseology:

   PHRASEOLOGY−
   FLY RUNWAY HEADING.
   DEPART (direction or runway).
   TURN LEFT/RIGHT.
   WHEN ENTERING CONTROLLED AIRSPACE
   (instruction), FLY HEADING (degrees) UNTIL
   REACHING (altitude, point, or fix) BEFORE
   PROCEEDING ON COURSE.

   Typically, you will also be asked to \”Verify this clearance will allow compliance with terrain or obstruction avoidance.\”

   In addition, particularly in such busy airspace, you should expect a void time and it will be phrased something like: N12345 is released, Time now 36, clearance void at 41, report back no later than 46.

   My advice is that if the release instructions are not specific, then I would ask for clarification. I would also note that if ATC did not bother to provide you with an indication of any heading, then that is license to climb to 400 feet AGL and proceed on course, terrain permitting. If you decided to continue straight out, it was their duty to coordinate with the Class D airspace, not yours.

   0 Votes 0 Votes  0 Votes

7. 
   

   
   

   EricB on Feb 10, 2019

   Thank-you very much John for your very informative reply.

   You’re 100% right, I received my clearance on the ground with a Hold for release instruction and then a N12345 is released, Time now 36, clearance void at 41, report back no later than 46 but I never got any first vector or a runway heading instruction. If so I never read it back. My problem was the bad radio quality on the ground with ATC + my understanding which is not as good as an english native speaker. I am going to fly in Florida at the end of this month and for sure I’ll never take-off without a very clear instruction.

   Thanks again for your reply, this site is a goldmine for pilots like me.

   0 Votes 0 Votes  0 Votes