FAR 61-87 (n)(p) Solo Requirement for Student Pilots – 90 day endorsement

19 Answers

1. 
   

   
   

   Brian on Jan 26, 2011

   I can’t think of a reason, unless safety is a factor, to not continue giving a student his/her 90 day and flight lessons till the end of time if desired. Some people just don’t care about getting their ticket, they just get flight training as a relaxing hobby. I’ve had 100 hour students who refuse to, and don’t ever intend on, soloing.
    

   0 Votes 0 Votes  0 Votes

2. 
   

   
   

   skyboyCFI on Jan 26, 2011

   Wow, funny you ask. I know a guy that owns his own C172 that is a professional student. He has plenty of time. He even flew his plane across the country when he moved here, with a licensed pilot. I think it’s maybe fear of failure. It’s probably most definitely a physiological issue.

   My ‘opinion’ is that a CFI should ‘not’ endorse a professional student. It’s the CFI’s rear-end if he kills himself or others. But do try as much as you can to help him get through it. If he/she is a capable pilot. I’ve never hesitated telling a student it’s not meant to be.

   0 Votes 1 Votes  1 Votes

3. 
   

   
   

   skyboyCFI on Jan 26, 2011

   One, more comment, to Brian. Dude, think about the consequences. You take full responsibility with every endorsement you make as a CFI. Do you really want to sign off a slacker for iternity? Not real safe. If they want life dual time, Weeeeee, let’s do it. $$$$. But solo? Heck NO!!! Not a responsible response to a clear problem. Because there is a problem with someone that won’t finish what’s required to demonstrate that he is fully qualified. You cannot fly half-a**. it’s just not SAFE!

   Happy & Safe flying everybunny. 🙂

   Just my feelings on the subject.

   -3 Votes 0 Votes  3 Votes

4. 
   

   
   

   Matthew Waugh on Jan 26, 2011

   Add me to the CFI’s who would withhold a 90 day endorsement if the student wasn’t trying to progress to their Private checkride.
    
   I can see Brian’s point of view – I’m just saying I wouldn’t do it.

   0 Votes 0 Votes  0 Votes

5. 
   

   
   

   Brian on Jan 26, 2011

   …Qt: skyboyCFI — Do you really want to sign off a slacker for iternity?”…
    
   What makes you think this type of person is a slacker? My experience has been quite opposite. I haven’t found a career student who I believe is there because they are lazy, yet anyway.
    
   It simply isn’t financially feasible for some people who just love to fly to be able to go for a ticket. More often than not these students let their solo endorsements laps and just fly with me anyway. To top this off there is a slue of regulations that protect inexperienced student pilots from getting into trouble. I further this by adding to my endorsement the “must contact” clause mentioned in another topic.
    
   Short answer, as long as you’re within regulatory guidelines and do your due diligence in ensuring the student isn’t operating unsafely, I don’t see a problem. This is no more unsafe than signing our name on the very first 90 day endorsement, so long as we are as careful with each subsequent endorsement. 
    
    

   +2 Votes 2 Votes  0 Votes

6. 
   

   
   

   skyboyCFI on Jan 27, 2011

   I totally disagree with you. They need to finish, not ride the coat-tails of an instructor.

   Geez Brian, a sports pilot can get a license in 20 hours. There is an underlying reason for not finishing and just floating around as a soloist.

   And if you signed off a solo, and a life was lost, you’ll feel so much different then your current perception. Trust me. Adding a clause “must contact” means absolutely nothing! You never are releaved of your obligation as a professional from responsibility, legally or morally. It’s your duty to motivate them to completion, to do the best job you can. That job means, tough choices. It’s wrong for someone to fly half-a**. If they can afford to fly at all, they can afford to finish. Even if it takes time. The privilege of a solo does not exist so people can play. It’s purpose is to help a pilot build on his training, on his own.

   If a CFI just keeps endorsing a person so they can go solo around with no goal, they are giving them a license to fly without a license. Without demonstrating that they are ‘completely’ competent. And that is just not right.

   It’s a huge responsibility. If you want to take it, it’s your choice. It’s sad you only care about being regulatorly covered. I’ll disagree with that too. You ‘will’ be explaining to the FAA & NTSB, your reasoning, because your signature is on the endorsement.

   0 Votes 1 Votes  1 Votes

7. 
   

   
   

   MaggotCFII on Jan 27, 2011

   Just some thoughts – and thanks for offering up your thoughts! 260 hits – would really like hear from some additional CFI types because I do not believe this issue is unique.
   My question is not directed at those student folks who never or can’t get a medical and who really enjoy flying dual. I don’t consider them professional students.
   “Progress is our most important product!” In these parts, Southern NE, an older part 61 student who is full time employed, with a family, with our weather, traffic and airspace and fly’s once a week, generally is in the 18 to 24 month range to get the PPL. Some folks take 3 months to solo because of the “other life” pressures. Then we are talking about 6 or so 90 day endorsements to completion. If a student is constantly working to the PPL, a fresh 90 day should not be a problem. On the other hand, if a student fly’s to maintain (my previous 14 day question) currency between 90 days at some point the 90 day endorsements end. And yes, the student knows this will be happening. It becomes S**t or get off the can. We exercise our judgment either way.
   Liability is a concern which is a reason we get to make additions to endorsements that meet the CFI “comfort level”. Those hold the student accountable for compliance and the CFI to monitor that compliance. And when the student does not and has an incident/accident you will be talking with FSDO.
   Just some thoughts – keep em’ coming!

   0 Votes 0 Votes  0 Votes

8. 
   

   
   

   skyboyCFI on Jan 27, 2011

   I entirely agree with Maggot’s comments above. Inline with my feelings too. So you presented the question Maggot, but you already knew the answer, didn’t you. ;-). Good advice, good topic.

   -1 Votes 0 Votes  1 Votes

9. 
   

   
   

   MaggotCFII on Jan 27, 2011

   Not so much as “knowing the answer”, as seeing what others are thinking.  I mean are we all on the same planet –  pretty much so!  We have to agree and disagree otherwise we are robots – that said, if what we discuss here helps us move forward then OK.
   Input appreciated from everybody – thanks!

   0 Votes 0 Votes  0 Votes

10. 
    

    
    

    James MacGregor CFI on Jan 28, 2011

    My two cents. If this guy is just going up in the pattern and not showing much interest in getting his ticket, then handle it carefully.
     For one it is OUR job as CFIs to help GA by bringing more people in, it is  our responsibilty to our students to give them quality instruction as well as provide a good time!
     
     If I were in your shoes I would mandate 10 hours dual instruction for every 90 day re-up I gave.
     I would explain that it will be easier and cheaper in the long run to just get this thing done. Ask what he wants to work on for his mandatory 10 hours, maybe this will lead to the areas he feels he lacks in and show you the real reason why he doesnt want to move forward.
     
     What is your student nervious about? is his written done? does he seem uneasy with x-countries, airspace, etc?  I dont think the issue is the 90 day thing, I think it is something else.

    +1 Votes 1 Votes  0 Votes

11. 
    

    
    

    skyboyCFI on Jan 28, 2011

    James, James, James,

    Two cents won’t buy it anymore. You forget about inflation. It’s two dimes now. :-p (wink)

    But I like your thoughts on the subject. Require 10 hours of dual for every 90 day solo endorsement, and help them succeed.

    0 Votes 0 Votes  0 Votes

12. 
    

    
    

    MaggotCFII on Jan 28, 2011

    Question’s purpose was to see what other CFIs exerienced, thought and did.
     
    Got some good discussion and hope points to ponder should the situation arise.
     
    Actually got out the Aviation Instructor’s Handbook and re-visited “motivation” out of the index, 5 references, — but that’s another question!

    0 Votes 0 Votes  0 Votes

13. 
    

    
    

    Micah on Jan 28, 2011

    I’ve never experienced this and am not familiar with anyone else who has. For any student I am willing to take, I think I would have an introductory “grace period” of sorts, during which I write off any histories told or preconceived ideas. I can’t imagine any situation in which I would continue to “fly” with a student–really, keep providing the solo endorsement–if this student did not show any interest or improvement towards a certificate. The student solo is a tremendous achievement and for many this is all they’re looking to complete; I’m for any student learning to fly who is interested in soloing only. A student, however, that is interested in flying solo with disregard for the regulations (and the intentions of such) is someone that I would absolutely not associate with. This student would get one and only one solo endorsement from me. The student pilot (and the 90-day solo endorsement) is a tremendous achievement and a transitory state to full piloting credentials (if desired); any student who displays “professional student” behaviors is really displaying the bad decision-making that all instructors should discourage.

    0 Votes 0 Votes  0 Votes

14. 
    

    
    

    Micah on Jan 28, 2011

    I want to clarify my previous comment: I mean “professional student” as described above–one who wants to have full flying privileges before or without completing the requirements for the flying credentials.  There are two other possible interpretations that come to mind, and I’m in favor of both of these: the pilot who employs a professional outlook on flying and is in close counsel with one or several instructors in the effort to always keep learning; the student who appears to enjoy flying with an instructor but is not ready (for whatever reason) to advance to the solo stage. The former example is my favorite kind of student. I’ve had one student of the latter type and, although he seemed to be very afraid of flying (never more than 20 minutes on the controls at a time) he always wanted to keep flying and I was very hopeful that he would learn to overcome his fear. I don’t mean to discount either of these types and I certainly am less afraid of the humble one who knows his limitations (the constant learner) or the fearful one who is not yet courageous enough to try (and needs protection) than the “professional student.”

    0 Votes 0 Votes  0 Votes

15. 
    

    
    

    Wesley Beard on Jan 28, 2011

    I have personally seen two long time student pilots.  They were both motivated to continue to their private pilots license but they had a fear of taking tests.  Both of them felt it disgraceful to themselves, family and instructor if they failed this “important” test.
     
    The solution… the instructor called the local DPE and filled them in on what happened.  They agreed to do a “surprise” practical test.  The instructor gave the student pilot a flight to plan and when they showed up they met the examiner.  The 8710 was already filled out and all they had to do was sign it.  It didn’t allow them anytime to get worked up over it.  They were both told before the test started and this is the practical test and such.  In the end, both passed with flying colors and one recently earned her instrument rating in much quicker time.

    0 Votes 0 Votes  0 Votes

16. 
    

    
    

    skyboyCFI on Jan 28, 2011

    Sneaky Wesley :-p. I like it!!

    0 Votes 0 Votes  0 Votes

17. 
    

    
    

    Alex Clark on Aug 14, 2012

    Oddly enough there is a situation just like this here.
    The student pilot is an older guy (late 60s) who owns a very nice Super Cub. (this is Alaska, only Cubs and Beavers are nice) He is a super perfectionist and had a 100% on the written test.
    Half-way through his private check-ride he decided that he did not like how he was doing under the hood and discontinued his own check-ride. The Examiner said he was doing everything just fine….
    So ever since then he has been doing 90 day solo endorsements,,, which all the local CFIs have been handling like super -BFRs. Somebody (including me) will fly with him for an hour and give him an hour of ground as well.
    He only flies when the weather is perfect (never in winter) and mostly just cruises around the local area doing full stop landings (he has 30 inch tundra tires) ..

    Since he flies almost every evening (for two or three hours minimum) in the summer, he now has 600 hours as a student pilot…

    So one train of thought is to cut the guy off…

    The other train of thought is that at least he is now having somebody ride with him every 90 days….he is safe, and somewhat legal…. And he gets regular medicals…. Which is more than can be said for the many other folks who blast around up here without a medical, BFR or license.

    +1 Votes 1 Votes  0 Votes

18. 
    

    
    

    Alex Clark on Aug 26, 2012

    UPDATE:

    The local eternal student question went through the FAA, my insurance company, Rod Machado, and an aviation attorney.

    Short story he was kicked loose after not obtaining his license or making any more progress over the last 9 years, (with various CFI’s) ..

    It was pointed out that every 90 day signature is an insurance that ALL the manuevers and regualtions covered under FAR-61.87 have been covered and that the student is profient in those manuevers. (you are betting your certificate, house, car and bank account on it) Flying with the client every couple months cannot possibly cover all the required items.

    The lawyer pointed out that years worth of solo endorsements, while never obtaining a license is simply screaming for the CFI to be sued.
    While the client may not be the one suing you, his heirs or even better yet, the people who own the house he crashes into,,, will use the client’s and your log book against you…
    It suggests that he/she was not good enough to be in the sky, but you kept sending them up regardless…..

    It won’t be pilots on the jury….

    +1 Votes 1 Votes  0 Votes

19. 
    

    
    

    MaggotCFII on Aug 26, 2012

    Alex – thanks for the update. Working in a part 61, small operation with working/older
    students, I have a limit of 5 ninety day endorsements. That equals 450 days of opportunity to finish-up post-solo.

    Student is told this at the beginning of training. If the person runs out of 90 day and comes back after a month – well it’s all the pre-solo training again, including the pre-solo written.

    Nothing is perfect – seems to have worked so far.

    0 Votes 0 Votes  0 Votes