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17 Answers

Are multiple solo flights common?

Asked by: 7419 views Student Pilot

I recently solo'd but my cfi only endorsed one box, 61.87 (b,c,d), and not 61.87(n). He then said I needed two more solo flights before I can fly solo local, not to include landing at another field, x country, or night. After talking to other cfi's they said this is not common and that I required 61.87(n) endorsed to have legally solo'd today. Is this common?

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17 Answers



  1. Mark Kolber on Nov 10, 2017

    Yes, you need a 61.87(n) endorsement to solo.

    Multiple solo flights in the pattern before being released to leave the home airport environment depends on the flight school and instructor. It is not at all unusual.

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  2. KDS on Nov 10, 2017

    I’m unclear as to your exact question and I’d have to see the documents (training record, logbook, student pilot certificate). I’m just guessing, but I think what your instructor was telling you is that he planned for you to solo a total of three times at your home airport before proceeding to the next phase of training. I suspect that everything is okay and there was just a lack of clear communication between you and your instructor. As with so many questions of this nature, the best thing to do is to ask your instructor to sit down with you for a bit and go over the applicable regulations and endorsements and clearly explain what each means and what his or her intentions for future training involve.

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  3. Jbad87 on Nov 10, 2017

    Thanks for the responses. To clarify, I solo\’d and my log book has two solo endorsement blocks. One is for b,c,d and the other for n, not including 25nm field, x county, and night. My cfi endorsed b,c,d and not n. From the verbage of 61.87(n) it sounds like that needs to be endoresed prior to solo flight. After I landed I told him how excited I was to fly alone in the pattern today. He told me I was not allowed to fly in the pattern without him for a minimum of two more flights. Is that common or instructor specific? I feel like im being strung along a bit and am considering flying with a new instructor. I’m on a time line for an AF upt slot and need to get done asap. Thanks again for the advice and info I was looking for some outside perspective before I called to clarify. The weather is supposed to be perfect this weekend and I was very much looking forward to flying.

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  4. Best Answer


    John D Collins on Nov 10, 2017

    The instructor needs to provide the endorsement for 61.87(n) for you to solo. However, he may also restrict your solo privileges as he deems fit. It is not at all uncommon to have multiple supervised solo flights. You have to abide by any restriction he places on you. He may have not interpreted the requirement for the 61.87(n) endorsement, and you should have that discussion with the instructor and get that endorsement before any new solo’s. Hopefully it was a simple oversight and it should be corrected. If you decide to change instructors, they are going to have to abide by 61.87(p), so you might not save yourself any time and it is likely to slow things down rather than getting the endorsement and complying with your current instructor’s requirements for the two more supervised or local solos.

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  5. Jbad87 on Nov 10, 2017

    Thank you everyone for the answers. We just had a discussion and he is unwilling to endorse 61.87(n) until I’ve done 3 supervised solo’s. Per my understanding of the FAR and the answers here the endorsement is a requirement for me to be the sole occupant in the aircraft. My background is 10 years AF as an aircrew member. I do not break regulations and cannot in good faith do so even if it means elongating my training timeline.

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  6. John D Collins on Nov 10, 2017

    My original comment was giving the instructor the benefit of doubt. But based on your last comment, you will need a new instructor and he should need a lawyer. I would also report the instructor to the flight school management if you are flying at a school or directly to the FAA if not, as he is making an intentional violation of the regulations if he instructs you to solo without the proper endorsements.

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  7. KDS on Nov 10, 2017

    This is certainly a strange situation, but the unfortunate fact is that many CFI’s (and I’ll confess that I was one) have a lot to learn after getting their instructor certificate.

    Just taking a guess without being certain of all the facts, my guess is that the CFI does not know that he can place limitations on the solo endorsement in the logbook. While his intentions are good, the execution is flawed.

    What you have to deal with is the human side of the equation. You don’t want to alienate the instructor by making him lose face. But, you also don’t want to violate the FAR’s. Perhaps dragging another CFI into the conversation and then stepping back would be a workable approach.

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  8. Jbad87 on Nov 10, 2017

    KDS you hit a great point about human factors. There is always more involved than just adherence to regulations. I am a military, formally trained, flight instructor in my previous career field, in-flight refuler. I instructed at a formal training unit and can say I have been wrong or instructed something incorrectly, accidentally. The important thing for any instructor is to admit the error and make the correction. When an instructor is unwilling to do so the instructor loses all credibility. Also, an instructor should never put their student in an awkward position or worse have them violate a regulation. I have learned a good amount this past 24 hours about part 61, and the FAR in general. Should I have done more reading about part 61 prior to yesterday? Absolutely, but this was a learning experience and shame on me for not being better prepared. This will be an odd conversation to have with my next cfi because I have logged pic time and half an endorsement. Thanks everyone for the timely responses and proving this website to be an extraordinary resource for a student pilot.

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  9. Jbad87 on Nov 10, 2017

    A follow up from today’s conversation with my prior cfi is that I told him I was going to fly with another cfi and he said he is unwilling to fly with me again if I fly with another instructor. Is that common among cfi’s? Again, he knows I’m on a timeline for a reserve upt spot and he is only giving me one day a week with him. Regardless of yesterdays events I was going to add in another instructor to expedite completion.

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  10. Jbad87 on Nov 10, 2017

    I’m sorry if this is incorrect and if there are moderators please let me know if im wrong, but I have one more question. My prior cfi logged pic time in my log book even though he didn’t give me a full solo endorsement. Can I keep that time?

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  11. KDS on Nov 11, 2017

    The logging is a very interesting question and one I suspect Mark Kolber will elaborate on more. My understand is that yes, you would log the flight as both solo and PIC because that is in fact what happened.

    When you think about it, that makes sense. If pilots were only allowed to log the time where everything about the flight was perfectly in line with the regulations, a lot of people would have to buy a couple bottles of whiteout for their logbooks.

    Regarding your question about your CFI being unwilling to fly with you again if you flew with another CFI; all I can say is a whole bunch of red flags just went up and started waving. That’s not would I would expect from a CFI.

    You mentioned waiting for a UPT slot and since this is Veteran’s Day, I’ll toss in a “thank you for your service”. I’ll also add one piece of civilian / military advice. Learn the rules for logging flight time both civilian and military. They aren’t the same thing. Military students who understand that will continue to keep a civilian logbook even while in military training. The same flight by civilian rules will be more flight time than by military rules. You never know where the future will lead and that bigger number might make the difference.

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  12. Mark Kolber on Nov 11, 2017

    Since KDS mentioned me…

    No, you can’t log the time legitimately. That’s not me. That’s what the logging reg says:

    ==============================
    A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot –
    (i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
    (ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under § 61.87 of this part; and
    (iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.
    ==============================

    No solo endorsement under 61.87(c); no legitimate student logging of PIC.

    I see someone gave John a thumbs down on his comment. I guess people don’t like bad news even if 100% correct. I don’t necessarily agree with reporting to the FAA but if the CFI in question should absolutely know this. If it’s not a mistake and he really thinks he is permitted to solo a student without giving the proper endorsement, he definitely needs some retraining before a “bad thing” happens to draw the FAA’s attention.

    The “bad thing” doesn’t have to be an accident. It could be something as simple as a conscientious DPE noticing there are logged solo flights predating the required endorsement. Not the end of the world but potentially a pink slip for the student and a discussion with an Aviation Safety Inspector for both.

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  13. Jbad87 on Nov 11, 2017

    I have to apologize to John. I think I gave him the thumbs down while going through and giving everyone a thumbs up that answered. John I’m sorry and I’ll try to get that fixed.

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  14. KDS on Nov 11, 2017

    I stand corrected. ………… Thanks Mark.

    But now let me take it a step further. Given that a person in such a situation cannot log PIC, would they not still be able to log SOLO and count it towards FLIGHT TIME?

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  15. Mark Kolber on Nov 12, 2017

    LOL!

    KDS, you raise a vilid question.

    a pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft.

    One can have a fun academic discussion of whether it is “flight time” to begin with based on FAR definition of that and “pilot time,” but I left it out since it’s not generally considered good practice to put evidence of an unlawful flight in ones logbook.

    😀

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  16. Kris Kortokrax on Nov 13, 2017

    I would suggest that you get the FAA involved. Since the introduction of the new “compliance philosophy”, they have taken off the “jack boots” and are more interested in education and compliance.

    Your instructor gave you (and logged) all the instruction necessary to solo. The only thing he did not do was to put the 61.87(n) endorsement in your logbook. The CFI needs to be educated and it seems that he is not receptive to education from another CFI. For this reason, you need to involve an FAA inspector. The inspector could point out to him that failure to endorse a logbook (for something that happened) would be akin to endorsing something that did not happen and would (in my mind) run afoul of 61.59 (falsification).

    Since you have received the instruction and have conducted a solo flight, the problem here is that your instructor has not recorded the endorsement. But for that, you would have logged the solo time. The real solution is to get the endorsement and log the time.

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  17. Jbad87 on Nov 14, 2017

    Thanks again everyone. My prior cfi and I were able to come to an accord and complete the endorsement. This has been an amazing learning experience and I greatly appreciate the vast amount of shared knowledge displayed here. I start with my new cfi tomorrow and I am ready to get going again. Nothing beats flying.

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