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17 Answers

Loggable hours question

Asked by: 6818 views FAA Regulations, Flight Instructor, General Aviation, Student Pilot

Ok, so I technically broke the FBO rules of not letting someone else manipulate the controls when I rented an airplane. Let's be honest, most people do.

Anyway, I am a CFI, but don't work as one. I rented a 172 for a little local flight just to have a little fun with my son. I let him fly the plane a little. Showed him turns, straight and level, etc. My sone is only 9 and he couldn't see out the front window. So I had him fly by reference to instruments. He used the AI for the most part, and actually flew nicely.

So I jokingly said to him that we can get him a logbook and log the hours. Then I started thinking, why not? I am a CFII. I couldn't find anything specific about freelance CFIs that aren't part of a flight school.

17 Answers



  1. John Scarry on Apr 25, 2017

    Did you comply with all of the TSA requirements before the flight?

    Proof of citizenship. Student must show evidence of U.S. citizenship to instructor with one of the following:
    Valid, unexpired U.S. passport

    Original or government-issued birth certificate of the U.S., American Samoa, or Swains Island AND a government-issued picture ID

    Original certificate of birth abroad with raised seal (Form FS-545 or DS-1350) AND a government-issued picture ID

    Original certificate of U.S. citizenship with raised seal (Form N-560 or N-561) or a Certificate of Repatriation (Form N-581) AND government-issued pictured ID

    Original U.S. Naturalization Certificate with raised seal (Form N-550 or N-570) AND a government-issued picture ID

    https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/pilots/alien-flight-training-program/aopas-guide-to-tsas-alien-flight-training-citizenship-validation-rule

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  2. Kris Kortokrax on Apr 25, 2017

    I would think that as the child’s father, he probably has seen the birth certificate. Further, I don’t believe that TSAs requirements apply to intro flights, which seems to be what happened.

    Of more concern to me would be that the child likely could not reach the rudder pedals and was merely manipulating the yoke. He could have gotten the same benefit (i.e., not much) from a PCATD.

    The other issue might be the impact on the FBO’s insurance if anything were to happen and the child made it known what had happened, coupled with a written record (logbook) detailing the history of what had happened.

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  3. Russ Roslewski on Apr 25, 2017

    Other than the above answers which are correct, I would add the question of “do you feel that this constituted actual training”?

    I have a daughter who is also 9. She has flown with me many times since she was born. I have a logbook for her which is for memories and such, more of a journal. It doesn’t have any training time in it, but “Passenger” time. Which of course is not a real category, and this time will not be used for any requirements in the future.

    I don’t log any of this as training because, as smart as she is, I don’t believe she is mentally ready yet to actually make PIC-type decisions. Heck, she can make a great takeoff as I coach her, but then usually as soon as we get airborne, she just lets go of the controls and looks out the window. So, clearly the mindset to “receive” training and “be a pilot” is not there – the “readiness” principle of learning. At this point she’s just playing with the controls. It’s fun, and it’s great father/daughter bonding, but it’s not real training.

    In a few years, if she really wants to learn, then I will start logging it as training time. But before that, it’s more of an ethical consideration, to me anyway. Is she really learning or am I really just padding her logbook? (In anticipation of a future flying job, for example.)

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  4. Gary Moore on Apr 26, 2017

    I agree with the other answers that this likely doesn’t meet the requirements to qualify as time toward training and certification. However – you can log whatever you want – and presenting his son with a log book commemorating their flying together seems like a nice thing to me and may be one step in helping him stay interested in flying.

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  5. ranyan on Apr 26, 2017

    Russ, I showed me straight & level, as well as turns, all by reference to instruments only, and he did pretty well. I did teach him. I didn’t just have him grab the yoke and let him randomly steer the plane around. I gave him a heading, put the heading bug on the assigned heading, and told him to hold it. He did, and he held his altitude pretty well too without the use of trim.
    So yes, I consider it training. Granted, it probably isn’t the same level that I would give to an adult, but it still was training. Unlike the DMV, the FAA does not have a minimum age to learn to fly or manipulate the controls. So yes, I think it was legit. Today he turned on. his computer and used Microsoft Flight Simulator, and was really into it, and took the lessons. He learned a little. About as much as one could expect from a 9 year old.
    You said you don’t log the time for your daughter because she isn’t ready to make PIC-type decisions. Absolutely, I agree with you. But that doesn’t mean that the child isn’t capable of learning how to fly the plane, navigate, and perform some other relatively easy functions. I also let my son do a radio call on the ground for a radio check.
    When the child gets to an age that they can act as PIC, guess what, they will be way ahead in their flight lessons and understanding of aviation.

    John, I have his passport and birth certificate in my possession, so I don’t think that will ever be an issue with him.

    Gary, I didn’t see any of the other answers that said it didn’t meet the requirements. Not sure what you mean. When my son turns 17 and can get his private, I don’t see any legal reason why those hours cannot count towards the minimum requirements.

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  6. HardLandings on Apr 27, 2017

    I would absolutely present him with his log book, teach him how to take care of it… Someday having this flight in his log may be really important to him, especially if he doesn’t get the opportunity to get very many logged flights with you. When I started really learning to fly @ 25, I had an original log book from when I was 14 or 15 and it was missing so I started a new one. When I was about done with my ‘first’ log book, I was able to track it the original from 28 years earlier and incorporate a missing flight with my dad into my time, I was glad to find it.

    Honestly, sometimes I just scan the posts on this forum because I get a kick out of seeing what pretty low key stuff that some people can get really twisted up about.

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  7. Russ Roslewski on Apr 27, 2017

    Ranyan – please don’t misunderstand. I am glad your son showed a willingness to learn, and if you feel it was valid training, then that’s okay by me. My example of my daughter showed that she isn’t really ready (really just not interested) to learn to fly, for me to count it as training.

    What I would caution anyone with, though (and this is where it gets into the ethical question for me), is even if I am training my daughter, if we go on a 4-hour flight during which she is learning to fly for 20 minutes but reading a book for the rest of the time, logging that as 5 hours of training would not, in my opinion, be ethical. That would be true “padding” of the logbook so that they have 800 hours of “time” by the time they start training. This case can come up anytime a CFI regularly flies for travel purposes with anyone – family member, a friend, etc.

    Also, make sure you have entered the required pre-flight training TSA citizenship verification endorsement into the logbook. (And, of course, make sure your TSA security training as a CFI is up to date as well, which if you are not an active CFI, may not be current.)

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  8. Gary Moore on Apr 27, 2017

    Ranyan – sorry – I didn’t mean to make a judgement call on whether the training was valid or not. I was just pointing out that you can log whatever you want whether or not that time can be counted toward a rating or currency. You can only use valid time to meet those conditions…but you can put whatever you want in the log book 🙂

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  9. Mark Kolber on Apr 28, 2017

    I’m sorry, Gary, but, I disagree with that statement as written. I’d put it differently:

    You can log whatever you want whether or not that time can be counted toward a rating or currency, so long as entries that don’t count are identified in some way In the logbook.

    If the FAA has reason to review a logbook it usuall a bad reason for the pilot. The FAA has and will look at what the entry says, not the pilot’s after-the-fact explanation.

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  10. Mark Kolber on Apr 28, 2017

    Ranyan, have fun with your son and log ipthe instruction he gets. The only “rule” I would worry about would be technically breaching your agreement with the FBO you are renting from if it has a rule precluding non-vetted instructors from teaching in their airplanes.

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  11. Gary Moore on Apr 28, 2017

    Hi Mark – I think we likely agree in principle and are probably just bickering over words here 🙂

    I’ll push back gently. There isn’t even a requirement to use a ‘logbook’. The only requirement is that you are able to show evidence of any time you use to qualify for ratings or currency. That could be on index cards, a spreadsheet or even a roll of toilet paper. I maintain that you can put whatever you want in your ‘logbook’. You don’t have to identify the ‘ones that don’t count’ you only have to identify the ones that DO count.

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  12. Kris Kortokrax on Apr 28, 2017

    Now let me push back a little. 61.51(a) uses the words “in a manner acceptable to the Administrator” when talking about the subject of 61.51, which is “Pilot Logbooks”. Does that mean it has to be a logbook proper? Not necessarily, but I doubt that a roll of toilet paper would pass muster.

    Regarding electronic record keeping, I would suggest looking at AC 120-78A published last June. It names pilot logbooks as one aspect to which it pertains. The electronic record must contain electronic signatures and must be “unalterable”. Not sure if your spreadsheet would measure up.

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  13. Gary Moore on Apr 28, 2017

    Kris – okay – so maybe I went a bit far with the toilet paper 🙂

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  14. Mark Kolber on Apr 29, 2017

    Gary, notice I did not indicate “how” to do the identification. Indicating the ones that do count is definitely a way of identifying the ones that don’t.

    We probably do agree in principle. But I think a blanket “ok to log anything” without qualifying it in some way is part of what you see when you read certificate revocation cased based on falsification of pilot records.

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  15. Mark Kolber on Apr 29, 2017

    Kris, we can probably run a full thread on electronic logbooks. I’ve personally come to the conclusion that the “unalterable” “electronic signature” guidance applies to endorsements (including CFI signatures for dual) from others. Even in paper, those are the only entries requiring a signature at all. I think Gary’s spreadsheet is fine for his own flight recording.

    YMMV.

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  16. Gary Moore on Apr 29, 2017

    Realizing we’re all basically in agreement – i’ll add this 🙂

    There are really two main reasons we log flight time. 1) to meet FAA (and possibly Insurance) requirements. and 2) to show experience – to get a pilot job, impress our pilots friends with “I have xxx hours” tales.

    #1 is a ‘requirement’ #2 isn’t (if you aren’t interested in a pilot job or impressing your friends)

    I make sure i log the #1 stuff (I use SafeLog)….I frequently miss logging #2 stuff because it’s just not important to me.

    I’m not advocating that as a practice for everyone – just zeroing in what HAS to be logged….

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  17. R. Anderson on May 05, 2017

    Of course ranyan can log the time for his son as dual received if he gave him dual. Outside of the comment about TSA rules, which I think are fully satisfied, there are no restrictions in part 61 that I’m aware of that would disallow the logging of this time as dual. One of the guiding principles underlying our rights is that unless there is a rule against it, you can do it. Lot of gray area in my comment, but if you teach someone something and correctly record it as such and, in the absence of a regulatory prohibition, caveat, or condition (specified by regulation), there should be no problem. Working hard to find some reason to disallow something seems a bit unproductive.

    Good comments all, just my two-cents.

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