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18 Answers

Instrument Instruction

Asked by: 11990 views Flight Instructor

Can a CFII without a current medical provide all instrument training (including hood training)  in a LSA because he/she is PIC in an LSA w/o a medical?  Assume the LSA a/c is instrument equipped.  Thanks. 

18 Answers



  1. Micah on Dec 30, 2010

    No, the CFI needs a current medical to act as PIC or a required crewmember.  IFR training requires (at least one) IFR flight, for which the CFI must at as PIC, and anytime the student is “under the hood” with the CFI then that instructor acts as (at least) a safety pilot, which also requires a current medical certificate. 

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  2. Kent Shook on Dec 30, 2010

    Like Micah said, at least one flight (the long IFR XC required by 61.65(d)(2)(ii)) must be “performed under instrument flight rules” and thus the CFII needs to act as PIC which makes them a required crewmember and means they need a medical (they are exercising private pilot privileges, so it can be 3rd class). 
     
    However, all the rest of the instrument training CAN be done in a properly equipped LSA by a CFII with no medical, as long as it’s done VFR. So, if you really like this particular CFII, go ahead and use them – Just be aware that you’ll need to do the long XC with someone else. I would also encourage you to find a “someone else” who is comfortable doing training in actual instrument conditions should they arise at other points in your training. Actual IMC time is extremely valuable, the hood is a really poor substitute.

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  3. Wesley Beard on Dec 31, 2010

    Micah’s answer is correct.  +1.  The CFII without a medical cannot be a required crew member without a current medical certificate.  This includes flying IFR as well as simulated instrument instruction.
     
    FAR 91.109 makes the safety pilot a required crew member.
     
    FAR 61.23 makes all required crew members have a current medical.
     
    This question threw me for a little bit with the use of a sport pilot airplane.  I realized that an instrument rating cannot be on a sport pilot license thus the CFII is not acting under the sport pilot rules but regular CFII rules.  FAR 61.65 requires at least a private pilot license for the instrument rating.

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  4. Thomas Vaillencourt on Jan 02, 2011

    14CFR Part 61.23 (a) “except as provided in paragraphs B and C of this section a person…” -14CFR 61.23 (b) “operations not requiring medical certificate.   …(4) when exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate with- …(i) a sport pilot rating in a glider or balloon; or”…
    So when exercising the privileges of a flight instructor the medical certificate is not required,
    but under part 61.23 (a) paragraph (2) “must hold at least a second class medical certificate when exercising the privileges of a commercial pilot certificate.”
    -With that said whether he is instructing you or not if you are paying him a second class medical certificate is required.                  
    This is my interpretation and understanding of the regs however I am not an instructor yet, so I may be wrong. aAm I mis-interpreting the regulation?
     

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  5. Kent Shook on Jan 02, 2011

    Thomas,
     
    Yes – A flight instructor never needs a second class medical to instruct. Sounds funny, but the FAA’s view is that you’re paying the instructor to *teach,* not to *fly*. So, when a CFI is a required crewmember (for example, they must be the PIC when giving primary instruction) they need a 3rd-class medical. If they are not a required crewmember (say, giving instrument instruction under VFR to a rated pilot who can be PIC for the flight) they don’t need a medical at all!
     
    This particular case is a bit weird because of the LSA thing. When giving instrument instruction in an LSA under VFR, nobody needs a medical because they’re only exercising Sport Pilot privileges. However, a Sport Pilot cannot fly IFR, so on the cross country flight (which must be flown IFR) the CFII must be exercising Private Pilot (with Instrument Airplane) privileges, thus requiring a 3rd class medical for that flight.
     

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  6. Kent Shook on Jan 02, 2011

    Gaah, after I hit “Submit” I realized that my example could be taken the wrong way. When a CFII is giving instrument instruction, they are a required crewmember. In this particular case (flying an LSA) they do not need a medical, but if they were NOT flying an LSA, the CFII would need a medical because they become a required crewmember. 
     
    A better example would be giving a BFR to someone who is still within their 2 years since the previous BFR or rating. The “student” in that case can act as PIC, so the CFI doesn’t need a medical even if they’re flying a normal category aircraft.

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  7. Thomas Vaillencourt on Jan 02, 2011

    No, I do understand what you’re saying, my point was CFI or not- PIC or not- LSA or not- Required crewmember or not< is all trumped as soon as he is paid. Apon flying for campensation or hire, (in this instance), because he is being paid for flight instruction, he is still subject to the regulation while excersizing his commercial ticket. as soon as he is compensated he needs a medical. No? I could still be wrong…

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  8. Thomas Vaillencourt on Jan 02, 2011

    To break it down as simply as possible, a medical certificate is not required when exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate if the person is not acting as Pilot in Command or serving as a required pilot flight crew member, but a second class medical certificate is required when exercising the privileges of a commercial pilot certificate. -A second class medical certificate is required for all commercial flying except that which requires an ATP.

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  9. Kent Shook on Jan 03, 2011

    Again, the FAA’s stance with flight instructors is that they are NOT being paid to FLY. They are being paid to TEACH. Note that Flight Instructor is not a rating that goes on your pilot certificate, it’s a separate certificate… Also, FAR 61.23(b)(5) states:
     
    [quote]”(b) Operations not requiring a medical certificate. A person is not required to hold a medical certificate—
    (5) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate if the person is not acting as pilot in command or serving as a required pilot flight crewmember;”[/quote]
     
    Also, check out this AOPA ASF article, especially the 10th paragraph: http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/inst_reports2.cfm?article=4674
     
    Finally, there are FAA Chief Counsel interpretations to back this up – But I don’t know how to find them. Maybe someone else can post a link.
     

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  10. Thomas Vaillencourt on Jan 05, 2011

    Flight instruction does not fall under the Commercial? So any flight instruction for Private students Who are not yet rated requires a medical, but once the private starts his instrument it would not be required? because of the transfer of PIC athority?

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  11. Wesley Beard on Jan 05, 2011

    It can get a little confusing, since the issuance and use of a CFI requires a current and valid commercial license one could logically conclude that all commercial privileges and limitations also apply to the CFI certificate.  This isn’t the case, it is more of a prerequisite for using the CFI.  Does the instructor have a current and valid commercial license with appropriate category and class ratings? Yes; they can instruct in the airplane provided the CFI certificate has those authorizations as well.
     
    Anytime the CFI is acting as a required crew member (using his/her pilot’s license) a medical is required (per regulations of course).
     
    The regulations, outside of a sport pilot license, glider or balloon, require a medical to act as pilot in command or as a safety pilot.
     
    To answer your question specifically about CFI’s.   CFI’s are required to have a current 3rd class medical to teach private pilots (PIC), instrument or commercial students in simulated instrument conditions (safety pilot) or in IFR (where the student is not IFR current (PIC)).  This all assumes that there are no other pilots on board that can take on those duties.
     
    CFI’s do not have to have a current medical for pilots who are current (flight review) in the aircraft with appropriate category and class ratings.  So if you were a private / commercial / ATP pilot and I flew with you as your instructor, I do not have to have a current medical but you do.  If you don’t have a current medical or let your flight review lapse, then I must have a current medical.  Someone on the aircraft must be able to assume pilot in command duties.

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  12. Kent Shook on Jan 05, 2011

    Thomas,
     
    Careful – When doing instrument work, a safety pilot is needed, and the CFII serves as the safety pilot. As a required crewmember, the CFII must have a medical – Unless they’re doing it in an LSA. 
     
    The CFI needs a medical whenever the “student” can’t be the PIC or the CFI becomes a required crewmember. New category/class, new endorsements, instrument work (except in the LSA), etc. However, this can be a 3rd-class medical.

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  13. Micah on Jan 05, 2011

    Kent, I’m quite sure that LSA rules do not allow a safety pilot to not carry a valid medical.  A safety pilot is defined as a private pilot, at minimum.  I don’t see any way that a CFI, or any other certificated pilot, can perform the functions of safety pilot without a valid medical.

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  14. Kent Shook on Jan 06, 2011

    Right you are, Micah – Or so it would seem. From 91.109:
     

    [blockquote](b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—
    (1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.[/blockquote]

     
    So, the safety pilot (CFII) needs at least a private pilot certificate. That does imply a valid medical. I wonder if this is something the FAA really intended, or if it’s a situation that they didn’t consider when writing the LSA rules. The language requiring a private pilot certificate has been there longer than the LSA rules, IIRC, so I think its original intent was to prevent a Recreational Pilot from acting as a safety pilot. I’d certainly like to know the reasoning behind that, and whether or not the same reasoning would apply to this situation.
     
    For now, the safe thing to do is to use a CFII with a medical, even in an LSA.

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  15. Micah on Jan 06, 2011

    My original answer was meant to be as simple as possible, but it may be useful, given the direction of the discussion, to review what medical requirements exist for each type of flight action or certificate.  What I understand from the regulations are below:
     
     
    1. LSA — PIC only — No medical required, Valid US DL required
    2. To exercise the privileges of the Private Certificate– PIC or SIC — 3rd Class medical privileges (any medical certificate) 
    3. To exercise the privileges of the Commercial Certificate — PIC or SIC — 2nd Class medical privileges (1st or 2nd Class medical certificates only)
    4. To exercise the privileges of the ATP Certificate — PIC or SIC — 1st class medical privileges (only on a valid/current 1st Class medical)
    5. Safety pilot (or any required crewmember) and may act under either of scenarios 2, 3, or 4 (in conjunction the requirements of the regulation(s) that define the crewmember position).
    6. To exercise the privileges of CFI Certificate — as instructor — no medical certificate required.
    7. Some privileges of the CFI Certificate can only be performed when exercising the pilot privileges in scenarios 2, 3, or 4 (5 is a duplicate of those 3).  (There are many examples here of which the question at top is only one.)
     
     
    Because of the nature of IFR training, no CFI will be able to perform all tasks under scenario 6 only.  Likewise, no pilot can perform the functions described in scenario 5 using the privileges of the LSA certificate.  It is entirely likely that these rules change in the future; I’ve heard that the FAA has been pleased with the results of the LSA/no medical “experiment” and may even get rid of the 3rd Class medical as a requirement to exercise Private privileges.  If that happens then obviously all of these requirements must be interpreted from the new rules and may change.

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  16. Zan on Aug 16, 2011

    Can you log the hours in your log book with the CFII name, under instrument instruction from a CFII who does not have a medical, and whom you are paying, for those minimum 15 hours instrument instruction to be counted as instrument instruction?

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  17. Wes Beard on Aug 16, 2011

    Zan,
    Your question has lead me down several possible solutions.
    (1) If you and your instructor are alone in the airplane than you should not log instrument time as the instructor cannot act as a safety pilot.  See §61.51(g) for definition on instrument time.  You could, and it would count but you would be breaking the FARs and both you and your CFII would have enforcement action should you get caught.  It would be pretty easy for the FAA since the CFII signed off your 8710 and they know they have a medical or not.  In any instance, a CFII with current medical is required for the 3 hours in preparation of the practical test in an airplane.
     
    (2)  If you and a safety pilot are occupying both pilot seats in the aircraft then you CFII can instruct without a medical certificate from the back seat.  In the situation, it is possible for three pilots to log PIC time at the same time (though I wouldn’t want to do it).  However, the CFII needs to completely trust the safety pilot to keep them safe.
     
    (3)  You and your CFII can log almost all of the 15 hours in an approved AATD / BATD, flight training device or flight simulator with the CFII who doesn’t have a current medical.  See §61.65(d).  You will need to find another CFII with medical for the 3hrs in preparation of the test and the cross country under IFR rules.

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  18. Zan on Aug 16, 2011

    Wes
    Thank you for all your information, I will act appropriately.

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