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15 Answers

Can a Flight Instructor solo a student during SVFR ?

Asked by: 12531 views Flight Instructor, Student Pilot

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15 Answers



  1. Kris Kortokrax on Jan 21, 2014

    That depends on why the weather is SVFR.

    61.89 (a) (6) requires 3 SM visibility during the day and 5 SM at night.

    There is no limitation on the ceiling stated.

    If it is SVFR because the ceiling is 900 feet, but the visibility is 3 SM or better, you could solo a student.

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  2. Wes Beard on Jan 21, 2014

    No. The pilot in command must capable of instrument flight. Not to mention a student pilot is required to have at least 3sm visibility during the day and 5sm at night.

    Reference 91.157 and 61.89

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  3. Denis on Jan 21, 2014

    Right ! I actually knew that FAR, I couldn’t find @ all the ceiling requirement. The airport I fly out of is 58 MSL and my instructor is going through my CFI training and asked me that question that neither of us couldn’t find it. So if the ceiling is @ 1000 ft for instance, the student can still solo as long as he stays clear of clouds ? And even by 20ft let’s say ?

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  4. Wes Beard on Jan 21, 2014

    The 1000 feet for controlled airspace reference is found in 91.155(c).

    To operate under SVFR, 91.157(b)(4)(i) “the person being granted the ATC clearance meets the applicable requirements for instrument flight under part 61 of this chapter”

    61.65 has the listing for the requirements of instrument flight. Mainly, the pilot must be a private pilot or higher and have an instrument rating.

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  5. Kris Kortokrax on Jan 21, 2014

    Wes,

    You need to read a little closer. The instrument requirements apply only to airplanes at night.

    Some of us teach helicopter students.

    Most of us solo our students in the daytime.

    Not everyone solos their students in D or C airspace.

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  6. Bob Watson on Jan 22, 2014

    I’m going to limit my comments to airplane pilots…

    Operating SVFR is only possible with a clearance from ATC. Could you get an SVFR clearance to solo a non-private pilot/non-instrument rated student? I don’t think so. And even if they did get an SVFR clearance, what could they do with it? Leave the airport area. I don’t think they give SVFR clearances to shoot touch and goes. So off goes your student into the haze–what could possibly go wrong?

    Now, if the question is could a student solo at an airport in Class G airspace, with < 1,000' ceiling but having the required visibility, it appears so, but why? It seems like a lot of risk for very little gain, to me. Unless the student has practiced flying at TPA < 800-1,000 ft., the chances of disorientation are very high (e.g. from temporarily entering the clouds and/or flying a lower-than-normal traffic pattern). Even licensed pilots are challenged by this whey they start learning low-altitude, circling approaches. Again, what could possibly go wrong?

    Like so many other things in aviation, this seems like one of those where just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

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  7. Mark Kolber on Jan 22, 2014

    The question on student pilots and SVFR is an interesting one. I happen to agree with Kris but am pretty sure some arms of the FAA don’t. This is a question that came up on a Flight Instructor Review Course I took a few years ago and the “correct” answer was that a student pilot could not fly SVFR. I argued the point for a while with the course people but the bottom line was that these courses are approved by an FAA unit and this is the answer the FAA wanted.

    Since real guidance (in the form of, for example, an FAA Chief Counsel opinion) doesn’t exist, here’s the “no” analysis:

    •Two student pilot limitations are that a student pilot must have (a) at least 3 miles flight visibility and (b) visual reference with the ground. 61.89(a)
    • SVFR permits flight with down to 1 mile visibility and clear of clouds
    • Since SVFR limits are lower than student pilot limits, no SVFR for student pilots.

    The opposing view is that this analysis doesn’t account for a simple and common situation – a controlled surface area airport with a ceiling less than 1000′ (below VFR minimums per 91.155(c)) but visibility >3 (maybe even unlimited) below. A student pilot can easily fly SVFR in those conditions while staying well within 61.89 limits.

    I can easily see both sides of this. I can certainly see the FAA taking the position that we can’t have pilots with SVFR clearances (which apply IFR separation requirements) who cannot comply with certain ATC instructions due to certificate restrictions. OTOH, I can see a student caught in lowering ceilings, but clear below or wanting to do touch & goes with a ceiling below 1000′ (but, again completely clear below) at Class E or higher airport.

    That regulatory. As an instructor, I’d be hesitant sending student out in marginal conditions even if completely VFR. But that’s just me.

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  8. Kris Kortokrax on Jan 22, 2014

    Bob,

    The following language from Order 7110.65U does in fact allow takeoffs and landings under SVFR. There is no language in the Order prohibiting student SVFR operations.

    7-5-5. LOCAL OPERATIONS
    a. Authorize local SVFR operations for a specified period (series of landings and takeoffs, etc.) upon request if the aircraft can be recalled when traffic or weather conditions require. Where warranted, LOAs may be consummated.

    If there is 10 SM visibility underneath a 900 foot overcast, the student would not be wandering “into the haze”. Also, not every airport has a 1000′ traffic pattern.

    I merely answered the original poster’s question in the context of “Would it be against regulations”, not whether it would be advisable under any and all circumstances.

    Mark,

    I would have been right with you questioning the FIRC answer. If the FAA were to try and pursue an enforcement action against a student flying in the pattern with a SVFR clearance and over 3 miles visibility, what would be the regulation allegedly violated?

    You know as well as I that mere employment by the FAA does not confer instant and complete knowledge of aviation and regulations upon an individual.

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  9. Mark Kolber on Jan 23, 2014

    7-5-5. LOCAL OPERATIONS
    a. Authorize local SVFR operations for a specified period (series of landings and takeoffs, etc.)

    I even know of situations when it has been done for touch & goes.

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  10. JCBaum on Jan 24, 2014

    While some ASIs might disagree (and it may not be the best idea), depending upon the student and the situation, SVFR for a solo would be OK. Controlled airspace requires maintaining a minimum of 500 foot separation below clouds. A TPA of 1000 AFE then requires a minimum ceiling 1500 feet for non-SVFR operations. One could pattern-solo a student under SVFR with a 1400 foot ceiling and very good visibility (not in marginal visibility).

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  11. Kris Kortokrax on Jan 24, 2014

    JC,

    91.157 exempts SVFR operations from the requirements of 91.155. Clear of clouds is all that is required.

    Further, there is nothing regulatory about traffic pattern altitudes. In fact, the AIM states in 4-3-3 that pattern altitude should be maintained unless a change is required for cloud clearance.

    One could solo a student in the pattern with a 900 foot ceiling and good visibility.

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  12. Premier5720 on Mar 12, 2014

    I personally think that VFR minimums are just that, minimums…. I try to fly with my students when the weather is above minimums because lets be frank here, 1000 foot ceiling and 3 miles viz really are not that ideal for a student, particularly when they are alone. I set limitations when I solo my students that are better than the minimums and I would probably not even entertain the idea of soloing one in SVFR. I would have to agree with Bob Watson on this one….. there is just to much that could happen.

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  13. Mark Kolber on Mar 13, 2014

    Premier5720, I don’t think anyone here is advocating CFIs permitting students to routinely engage in SVFR flight. We all impose limitations on our students both regulatory and non-regulatory. I’d say most of us don’t allow students to fly in significant crosswinds or routinely give solo night flight endorsements. And most of us would not willy-nilly send students out in marginal conditions.

    The sole question is whether a student is permitted to do so by the regs. And it’s important to know, and for students to know, the answer to that question. Things happen and even student pilots need to know what options they have.

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  14. James c on Apr 11, 2014

    Kris I don’t agree with you,

    4 (II) aircraft needs to be equipped for ifr

    4(I) person needs to be ifr current and qualified.

    My interpretation is this is used to get in and out of controlled airspace without a short range…..

    §91.157 Special VFR weather minimums.
    (a) Except as provided in Appendix D, section 3, of this part, special VFR operations may be conducted under the weather minimums and requirements of this section, instead of those contained in §91.155, below 10,000 feet MSL within the airspace contained by the upward extension of the lateral boundaries of the controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport.

    (b) Special VFR operations may only be conducted—

    (1) With an ATC clearance;

    (2) Clear of clouds;

    (3) Except for helicopters, when flight visibility is at least 1 statute mile; and

    (4) Except for helicopters, between sunrise and sunset (or in Alaska, when the sun is 6 degrees or more below the horizon) unless—

    (i) The person being granted the ATC clearance meets the applicable requirements for instrument flight under part 61 of this chapter;

    (ii) The aircraft is equipped as required in Part 91.205(d).

    (c) No person may take off or land an aircraft (other than a helicopter) under special VFR—

    (1) Unless ground visibility is at least 1 statute mile; or

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  15. Kris Kortokrax on Nov 21, 2014

    I don’t have any alerts set up and just saw this.

    You state that you don’t agree with me.
    What exactly is it that you don’t agree with?

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