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6 Answers

VFR through a ceiling

Asked by: 4849 views General Aviation, Private Pilot, Weather

I was asked by a check instructor if its legal for a VFR pilot to fly through a ceiling (broken or overcast layer). I said yes if there is an opening that allows for proper cloud clearance. He said I was wrong, you cannot fly through a ceiling.

This confused me. Did he say this because if there is a sufficiently large hole there is technically no ceiling at that point? Or does he mean that weather reports are the ultimate authority, i.e. if I am approaching an airport VFR above the clouds and the ATIS or AWOS is reporting broken at 2000, I cannot attempt to land there even if there are openings.

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6 Answers



  1. John D Collins on Jul 29, 2018

    The instructor is referring to this regulation:

    §61.89 General limitations.

    (a) A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft:

    (6) With a flight or surface visibility of less than 3 statute miles during daylight hours or 5 statute miles at night;

    (7) When the flight cannot be made with visual reference to the surface; or

    So this precludes flying above an overcast.

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  2. cmpt7 on Jul 29, 2018

    Hm, I didn’t realize we were talking about student pilot regulations but I suppose that’s possible.

    I’m still confused about the relevance to a private pilot of the definition of a “ceiling” as the lowest broken or overcast layer. Is it because a broken or overcast layer by definition prevents a pilot from achieving VFR mins; and if there is a hole allowing passage then there is technically no ceiling at that point?

    Or is a ceiling a VFR barrier that is strictly defined by weather reports regardless of what actual conditions a pilot observes? For example, if the airport is reporting 800 broken but I see a clear opportunity to depart VFR, is it legal to take off before the official weather report (ATIS/AWOS) changes to reflect those conditions? Would a tower let you attempt a VFR takeoff or landing under these circumstances?

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  3. John D Collins on Jul 29, 2018

    It was an assumption on my part that the pilot was a student and not rated. A ceiling is defined in the PCG as:

    CEILING− The heights above the earth’s surface of the lowest layer of clouds or obscuring phenomena that is reported as “broken,” “overcast,” or “obscuration,” and not classified as “thin” or “partial.”

    91.155 prescribes what VFR conditions are. For the most part it only prescribes visibility and cloud separation requirements, although there is a limitation for operating under a ceiling in airspace that is controlled airspace to the surface. A tower operating at an airport with controlled airspace to the surface would not let you depart under VFR with a 800 foot broken ceiling, but could allow a special VFR clearance to depart in compliance with 91.157 assuming the conditions were appropriate.

    91.155 (c) Except as provided in Sec. 91.157, no person may operate an aircraft beneath the ceiling under VFR within the lateral boundaries of controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport when the ceiling is less than 1,000 feet.

    That being said, there isn’t a limitation on ceiling if the surface airspace is class G. When flying into KPCM, a temporary tower is usually in place for Sun N Fun. Even though it is a tower, class E bottoms at 700 AGL and G is to the surface. In that case, you could depart under VFR and scud run under a broken ceiling of 800 feet (or lower) to find a hole in the clouds that kept you VFR at appropriate visibility and cloud clearance requirements and climb thru the hole.

    If the tower was in class D and the ceiling was 1000 or higher, one could also depart VFR and find a hole where cloud separation and visibility requirements could be maintained and climb above a broken layer

    So a student has a limitation to keep the surface in view, so this blocks climbs above a ceiling. Rated pilots must comply with 91.155 and or 91.157 to remain VFR and there are some limits, but they don’t apply to all situations.

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  4. cmpt7 on Jul 29, 2018

    Thanks that makes sense, I forgot about that regulation about controlled airspace to the surface.

    In the case of an uncontrolled airport with a class E surface area, where there is no tower to reject VFR aircraft, is the legality of flying there totally dependent on the METAR/AWOS? Or can the pilot make their own judgement of the clouds and visibility if the reporting is clearly inaccurate?

    I have another quick question: At my home airport the there will often be a low layer of clouds developing just over the departure end of the runway, but I guess since it hasn\’t yet come into view of the weather monitoring equipment, the METAR still reports clear skies. I see lots of pilots departing VFR right into this stuff and presumably flying under it until they find a hole to climb through. How are they judging the height of the clouds without the aid of any weather reports? Do they just know it looks safe from experience?

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  5. John D Collins on Jul 29, 2018

    The regulation only allows for the pilot to be the judge when there isn’t a ground report. So if the AWOS is reporting IFR conditions, that is an official ground report and it does not matter if you can see 100 miles and not a cloud in sight.

    91.155 (d) Except as provided in Sec. 91.157 of this part, no person may take off or land an aircraft, or enter the traffic pattern of an airport, under VFR, within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport–
    (1) Unless ground visibility at that airport is at least 3 statute miles; or
    (2) If ground visibility is not reported at that airport, unless flight visibility during landing or takeoff, or while operating in the traffic pattern is at least 3 statute miles.

    It depends on the home airport and the specific conditions. If the airport is in class G airspace, 100 foot overcast and 1 mile visibility is a beautiful VFR day.

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  6. cmpt7 on Jul 29, 2018

    My airport is a class D in a congested area. So it seems you have to be precise to ensure that you’re staying both 500 below the clouds and 1000 above the highest obstacle. That’s what bothers me about people taking off before they know how high those clouds at the end of the runway are. Would you say to wait until a report on the cloud bases comes out before taking off?

    Also would the tower stop VFR departures if those clouds at the end of the runway started to look especially thick and low? Or do they have to go by the automated weather which still says skies clear and 10sm

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