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3 Answers

HOLDING

Asked by: 693 views
Instrument Rating, Student Pilot

"Hold at 4DME FIX  (from AAA VOR)  ,  radial 130  outbound   , 4000ft,  EFC XXXX........."

which is the correct way? the green hold or yellow hold ?

*we assume ATC is not giving a NW,SE information

example image :   ---->  https://prnt.sc/g53x5t

 

I beleive is the yellow because at this point  on the Inbound Leg of the holding we are tracking  outbound the radial 130, as instructed to do so.

 Am I correct please?

 

thank you all.

3 Answers



  1. KDS on Aug 06, 2017

    I\\\’m glad you asked that question because it made me dig into the publications and learn something that had a personal connection.

    But, to answer your questions, you will (should) never get a clearance direction. Take a look her in FAA Order JO 7110.65W:

    https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/ATC.pdf

    First look at paragraph 4-6-4. \\\”When issuing holding instructions, specify direction of holding from the fix/ waypoint\\\”

    Then look at paragraph 4-6-1 b. 2. When the pattern is charted, you may omit all
    holding instructions except the charted holding direction and the statement “as published.”

    I knew that ATC was supposed to give a holding direction when issuing a clearance, but I didn\\\’t know that included when it was depicted. What makes that particularly interesting to me is that many years ago I was flying with an instrument student and we requested to hold at a VOR. 99% of the time, when people hold at that VOR, they do it on one side because that is what sets them up for the approach and what is depicted for the missed approach. However, we were in an en route phase and my belief then (and now) is that the correct place to hold was as depicted on the en route chart. That hold patter was 90 degrees to the commonly used hold pattern. We were given clearance to \\\”hold as depicted\\\”. I didn\\\’t want to surprise ATC, so I said \\\”Just to confirm, you are expecting us to hold as depicted on the en route chart, is that correct?\\\” He came back in an angry tone and yelled, AS DEPICTED, AS DEPICTED! So, I told him how we were going to hold just to get it on the recording and we proceeded to do that. Later, I was talking to one of my ATC buddies and asked why that controller got his nose so far out of joint about my question. His reply was classic. He said \”Because he did not\’t know where the hold was depicted and didn\\\’t want to admit it.\”

    Well, as I once heard an FAA Inspector say when people were criticizing the performance of ATC, \”They only have to get 70% on their tests too.\” That\\\’s not exactly right, but I understand his point.

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  2. Russ Roslewski on Aug 07, 2017

    Is this a test question, or was it a real situation?

    If it’s a test question, it’s a lousy one. A controller should always specify a direction of holding, as shown in KDS’s link, paragraph 4-6-4. The clearance should read “Hold Southeast (or Northwest) of the 4 DME fix on the ABC 130 radial…” So, if it’s a test question, it sounds like it’s badly written and I’d place it in the category of “trick question”, since it uses terms that (at least in the U.S.) will not be used by ATC.

    If this was a real situation, then the answer is easy – as always, ask ATC to confirm what they want you to do, if you have any confusion about it – which clearly there is.

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  3. Christopher on Aug 08, 2017

    2KDS

    Thank you sir for your feedback and sharing those informations, very helpful. 🙂

    2Russ Roslewski
    Thank you sir as well , and yes was a simulator task asked by Latin America airliner on their screening proccess . 🙂

    regards

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