ILS7 @ KORL

7 Answers

1. 
   

   
   

   Mark Kolber on Apr 17, 2017

   What is the reason for establishing RADAR fix other than helping pilots to identify fix when you are not equipped with DME or something?

   That’s basically it. ESRAQ is identifiable by either DME or Radar. It’s a Radar fix to help out pilots without some other way (DME or GPS) to identify it.

   Other than that, there’s really no difference from any other approach, except that RADAR must be available to use it at all. And just like any ILS orLOC in a radar environment, you can get vectors to final. You can also anticipate the possibility of a localizer intercept prior to ESRAQ, or “direct ESRAQ, cleared for the approach, just as you would anywhere else.
   The course reversal? Possible I guess, although would expect downwind and base vectors rather than that 99% of the time.

   Why the rtadar? Just a guess. Look where it is with respect to KMCO. Rader is probably to ensure separation where the approaches to the two airports converge.

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2. 
   

   
   

   R. Anderson on May 10, 2017

   Good comments above, but I have somewhat of a different opinion:

   Your Question:
   “What is the reason for establishing RADAR fix other than helping pilots to identify fix when you are not equipped with DME or something?”

   1. In the briefing strip notes at the top of the plate notice the requirement that “DME or RADAR Required.”

   This is because there are only two ways to identify ESRAQ, DNMOR, and SWLTR – either DME or a RADAR fix called out by the controller. (This does not apply to the ORL 0.2 DME fix, which is the LOC appch MAP, which you need to have DME to identify unless you are using timing.). So your answer, inside your question, is correct. If you don’t have DME, then a RADAR fix, called out by the controller, can be used. Where “RADAR” fixes are depicted on approach charts, these points are identified on the RADAR scope the controller is using.

   2. Since this is not a “GPS” or RNAV(GPS) approach, GPS cannot legally be used to identify the RADAR/DME fixes noted above.

   3. Now note the requirement on the Plan View that states “RADAR REQUIRED.”

   There is not a published transition routing from the enroute environment to a point/fix from which you start the approach. (look at the approach plate and L24 IFR Enroute Chart – no specific routing is published to get you to a point where you can begin the approach). Therefore, you can expect to transition from the enroute environment to the approach via a RADAR Vector.

   4. This would not preclude transitioning from over ORL Vortac, flying outbound on the localizer front course and doing a HILPT at ESRAQ if cleared to do so.

   The “RADAR REQUIRED” notes on approach plates are charting requirements by convention. This notation does not always mean that there are not other ways to fly the approach without RADAR. It means that based on standard charting requirements (such as, but not only, when there is no published transition from the enroute environment) “RADAR REQUIRED” is annotated on the chart.

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3. 
   

   
   

   R. Anderson on May 10, 2017

   Sorry, I forgot an important reference regarding my comments above relating to the notation “RADAR REQUIRED” on the plan view of the chart. With respect to my comment about not having a published transition from the enroute environment to the approach:

   The AIM, paragraph 5-4-5 (b):

   “When radar or other equipment is required for procedure entry from the en route environment, a note will be charted in the plan view of the approach procedure chart (e.g., RADAR REQUIRED or ADF REQUIRED).”

   This information is also contained in a variety of other publications.

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4. 
   

   
   

   Russ Roslewski on May 10, 2017

   R. Anderson,

   “2. Since this is not a “GPS” or RNAV(GPS) approach, GPS cannot legally be used to identify the RADAR/DME fixes noted above.”

   This is incorrect. GPS absolutely CAN be used to identify these fixes. AC 90-108 spells that out. GPS can pretty much substitute for anything other than final approach course guidance.

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5. 
   

   
   

   R. Anderson on May 10, 2017

   Hi Russ,

   I stand corrected, even though I’m thoroughly familiar with 90-108 (or at least thought I was).

   Since the vast majority of my experience is flying FMC (multi-sensor) aircraft (DME/DME/IRU or DME/DME/IRU/GPS) I was not aware that you could extract ESRAQ independently, for example, from the available database for display. Since this is a requirement of 90-108 (versus manually inputting the fix, if even possible).

   Since KORL also has an RNAV (GPS) to RWY 07, I know in this case, once the RNAV(GPS) approach was selected from the database, ESRAQ (and the other fixes) would be available for display. But the question was about the ILS RWY 07.

   Is it accurate that the equipment you are familiar with would allow you to tune in the LOC frequency (109.9) as your primary means of lateral navigation, and at the same time extract/select from a database ESRAQ, DNMOR, and SWLTR and have these fixes depicted along the displayed localizer course?

   I would appreciate your comment on this because I was not aware that type of capability existed. I would like to learn something here.

   Thanks,

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6. 
   

   
   

   R. Anderson on May 10, 2017

   Hi Russ,

   Sorry, but I want to expand my question and comment show above just a bit. I realize that if you have the type of equipment that allows you to select and depict the KORL ILS RWY 07, once selected from the database it will show up on your Nav display with ESRAQ, DNMOR, and SWLTR depicted. But, since these fixes are coded in the database as DME fixes (at least with the ILS RWY 07 selected), if your onboard DME equipment fails, or the DME ground equipment at the VORTAC fails, how does your GPS equipment know to begin showing distance to and passing the fixes using the GPS coded position versus the failed DME position (even though they are almost exactly the same – (DME – slant range, GPS – no slant range)? I’m talking about typical GPS equipment used on GA/Corporate type aircraft, e.g. Garmin?

   (Not considering FMC multi-sensor equipment which is always using an algorithm constantly deciding the inputs to any position calculation.)

   Thanks,

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7. 
   

   
   

   R. Anderson on May 10, 2017

   Russ,

   Disregard my question as posted in the two entries above. I have done the research on Garmin type equipment and have answered my own question.

   I agree with your point,

   Thanks for the heads up on the substitution issue.

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