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Non-radar procedures for RNAV/Conventional SIDS

Asked by: 662 views FAA Regulations

As a controller and pilot, I've found that a lot of controllers (and our procedures) don't speak pilot while a lot of pilots (even with the best intentions) don't speak controller.  This being said, I'm curious what is being taught and how the general aviation world perceives the following situation:

Airport ABC is non-radar the day you need to file IFR to your destination.  Airport ABC has SIDs that all say "RADAR REQUIRED".  To be very specific, you are non-radar for the first few miles of the flight (until about 4,000 agl), then the back up radar site sees you - from which radar procedures/separation is then applied.

  1. Being the SIDs say "RADAR REQUIRED", how do you think ATC should clear you? (via the radials of the SID? no SID at all? etc..)
  2. Can an intermediate fixes be added between the ABC airport and the beginning of the SID, to clear you too as a clearance limit?
    1. KABC direct FIXXX direct BOBBB and the BOBBB1 departure  
    2. FIXXX is the clearance limit fix so that you can climb into radar airspace
  3. Would airport ABC require separate non-radar procedures published for you to legally depart (part 91 as well as 121/135 - if anyone can answer that)?

Airport ABC uses standard takeoff minimums.  

Thanks for your help and most of all, keep up the good work on your side.  Most pilots do an excellent job and I thank you all for your professionalism and understanding.

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1 Answers



  1. Mark Kolber on Nov 21, 2016

    I’m not sure I understand the question. A SID is nothing more than a set of ATC instructions in a charted form. Your #4 strikes me as a non-sequittur. If a published procedure is not required at all, why would one be required if a SID is inapplicable?

    If a SID says “radar required” by its own terms it is not applicable during a radar outage.

    What I would expect as a pilot is for ATC to issue a clearance based on its official procedures, and not something made up on the fly (so to speak) by an individual controller. What that alternative looks like depends on the reason for the radar requirement, something I don’t know as a pilot and I doubt an individual controller knows either. If the reason is the SID includes “radar vectors to…” well, duh, that’s out. If it’s a purely traffic separation issue, I wouldn’t be surprised to hear the equivalent if the SID at 11pm. If radar is required because the SID contemplateS flight at MVA rather than published MIA, there would be something else.

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