Logging cross country time

6 Answers

1. 
   

   
   

   John D Collins on Jan 10, 2025

   I would think that the entire time could be logged as cross country, but only the portion of the flight from E16 to KHAF and back to KRHV would qualify as counting towards the training time experience requirements for cross country for a private, commercial, or ATP rating . So you could log one flight between KRHV and E16, and another flight between E16 and KRHV via KHAF. I am assuming that you landed at each of the airports.

   There is a 2009 Dec 1 FAA Chief Counsel opinion dealing with a similar question from Dwight B. Van Zanen. I have copied the text of the opinion below:

   This responds to your request for a legal interpretation faxed November 13, 2007. Your letter requests clarification of the definition of cross-country time under 14 C.F.R. § 61.1 (b )(3)(ii)(B). This response is being issued simultaneously with legal interpretations to James Hilliard and Ted Louis Glenn, both of which address questions concerning logging cross-country time and are enclosed.

   Your letter presents a scenario to illustrate your question about how a pilot may log cross country time as defined in § 61.1 (b )(3 )(ii). In your example, a pilot wishes to fly from Airport A to Airport B, which is located 20 nautical miles (nm) to the south. The pilot then flies from Airport B to Airport C, which is located 60 run north. The pilot then flies home a distance of 40 nm from Airport C to Airport A. You state that each of these flights had an independent purpose. If a pilot logged these flights as flight segments of one flight, that pilot would not be able to log any cross-country time because no segment includes a landing that is 50 nm from the original point of departure. You ask whether the pilot may log the flight from Airport A to Airport B as one flight and the flights from Airport B to Airport C to Airport A as flight segments of a second flight. If that method of logging were used, the pilot could log cross-country time for the second two flights because Airport C is more than 50 nm from Airport B, the original departure point for that flight.

   Cross-country time is defined in§ 61.l (b )(3)(ii) as time acquired during a flight that is conducted in an appropriate aircraft; “that includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure”; and that involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

   Section 61.1 (b )(3)(ii) requires that a flight include a landing at a point other than the point of departure. As you correctly state in your letter, the definition does not require that any one leg of the flight be 50 nm but only that “at least one leg of the cross-country flight, however long by itself, must include a point of landing that is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nm from the original point of departure” of the flight. Legal Interpretation to E. Thomas Sisk (Mar. 18, 2008); see also Legal Interpretation to Alfred Tenuta, Jr. (Apr. 17, 1998). These interpretations allow a pilot to string together multiple legs to log a single cross-country flight. However, there is nothing in § 6 I .1 (b )(3)(ii) or previous FAA 2 interpretations dictating how separate flights must be logged. Accordingly, the pilot may choose what is considered a flight and what is merely a segment of a flight, and then log that flight time appropriately when the flight is conducted. Accordingly, the pilot may log the flight from Airport A to Airport Bas one flight (not logging cross-country time) and the flight from Airport B to Airport C to Airport A as a separate flight (logging cross-country time).”

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2. 
   

   
   

   Mark Kolber on Jan 12, 2025

   Assuming we are talking about a “normal” cross country toward a certificate or rating and not one of the “special” ones like the “long” solo cross country for the private certificate, I see two issues here..

   The regulation requires there be “a” point of landing more than 50 NM from the original point of departure/ As John points out, that does not mean a >50 NM *leg*. That means, for example, that you could land every 10 NM and it would still be a loggable cross country, so long as one of them was >50 NM from the “original point of departure.”

   But it does mean that if you treat RHV s your “original point of departure” you don’t have a loggable cross country, because neither E16 nor HAF is >50 NM from RHV. However, as John’s references show, you could treat RHV-E16 as a separate flight (“repositioning” in the language of the interpretations) and treat E16 HAF RHV as the cross country..

   But…

   The other problem is the distance between E16 and RHV. You say 50.5. Skyvector and some EFBs say 50.4. But either way, half the length of most runways (including the runway at E16). is way too close for comfort for me without checking with the DPE who will be evaluating it. A checkride is not the time to be arguing over which runway you landed on and whether anything less tha 51 suffices.

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   KDS on Jan 13, 2025

   Mark raises an interesting point. Where EXACTLY is “the point of departure and arrival”? AFAIK, there is no exact definition. 14 CFR Part 1 defines airport and heliport using the phrase “an area”. With a rotorcraft, a point of departure or arrival doesn’t have to be either of those.

   Of course, common sense says it isn’t wise to get into a questionable situation if you can avoid it. In the case of a practical test, if the examiner doesn’t agree, you lose. If you prove the examiner wrong, you are still quite likely to lose. That’s just human nature.

   My opinion is that it is center of mass of the airport regardless of the spot on the airport where the aircraft started, lifted, touched down, or terminated. However, my opinion and a nickel won’t even get you a cup of coffee nowadays.

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   Mark Kolber on Jan 14, 2025

   KDS, I think you are correct. The FAA defines

   AIRPORT REFERENCE POINT (ARP)- The approximate geometric center of all usable runway surfaces.

   It’s used for various purposes like airport elevation and I’d guess the database providers are using it to calculate distances. It also highlights part of the problem.

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   KDS on Jan 14, 2025

   Thanks Mark. Based on your comment, I opened my copy of Summitt Aviation and did a search for “Airport Reference Point” and it is in a great many places. I’m sure I must have read those words many times, but until you mentioned it in this thread, it never clicked in my mind. After 60 years of aviation, I can only say what Mickey Mantle once said:

   It’s unbelievable how much you don’t know about the game you’ve been playing all your life.

   Mickey Mantle

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6. 
   

   
   

   Mark Kolber on Jan 14, 2025

   As my wife reminds me, the stuff I don’t know far exceeds the stuff I know.

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