When to fly the ODP

15 Answers

1. 
   

   
   

   Wes Beard on Jun 04, 2015

   What a great question. When tower states “fly heading 030 cleared for takeoff” that is a vector to be followed.

   From AIM 5-2-5: “When a departure is to be vectored immedi- ately following takeoff, the pilot will be advised prior to takeoff of the initial heading to be flown but may not be advised of the purpose of the heading.”

   Notice the word vector and the responsibility for obstacle clearance rests with ATC. In your example the heading was in the clearance and the pilot is responsible for obstacle clearance. How that is achieved is really up to the pilot in command.

   If the weather was VMC up to the MEA you can depart visually and see-and-avoid the obstacles. If you are taking off IMC you need to figure out how you are going to ensure obstacle clearance. The easiest way is through the use of an ODP. If you use runway analysis, that would be another way to ensure obstacle clearance.

   The sim instructor was trying to make a point here and that is the clearance isn’t a guarantee of obstacle clearance but the heading to be flying when at a safe altitude calling departure. The sim instructor should have used a non-towered airport to more effectively convey what he wanted to teach as towered airports will usually assign a heading to fly on takeoff or a departure procedure.

   Tulsa is also a bad example because the ODP states to fly the heading unless you are southbound 084 to 288 for climb faster for the southbound flights.

   I think your student did the right thing but he may not have read and briefed if he wanted to or not use the ODP… Which should be standard practice at non-towered airports. See AIM 5-2-9.

   Regarding your KMKC example, if the tower tells you to fly a heading and cleared for takeoff that is what you need to do. They have taken responsibility for obstacle clearance.

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2. 
   

   
   

   Russ Roslewski on Jun 05, 2015

   Alex, I’m confused about the example. The departure procedure for Rwy 26 at TUL is:
   “Rwy 26, climb on a heading between 289 °CW to 083° from DER, or minimum climb of 222′ per NM to 2900 for headings 084° through 288°.”

   So, am I missing something, or wouldn’t a climb to 400 AGL, then a turn to 030 comply with the departure procedure? (030 being between 289 CW 083)

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3. 
   

   
   

   Mark Kolber on Jun 05, 2015

   Good catch Russ.

   The other thing about the scenario (Wes – take another look; do you agree?) is that there was no vector given by the tower. The scenario says:

   the sim instructor (a retired air traffic controller) gave the following clearance “cleared to XXX via heading 030 to join V131 then as filed, climb and maintain….”

   After being cleared for takeoff, the student climbed runway heading to 400’ AGL then turned to heading 030 per his clearance

   Note: there was no tower takeoff instruction to turn to a heading of 030. The 030 was simply part of his clearance, his initial routing to join V131 just as it might be at a non-towered airport (accompanied by “after entering controlled airspace” if it were not a Class E surface area). That’s exactly the situation to which the AIM guidance about being authorized to fly an ODP without a specific ATC clearance applies.

   If that was indeed the scenario, absent a Tower takeoff heading assignment, I agree with the sim instructor.

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4. 
   

   
   

   John D Collins on Jun 05, 2015

   A heading issued by the tower on departure is not a vector. One must be in radar contact in order to be on a vector.

   Here is the guidance from the controller’s manual:

   c. Departure Procedures.
   1. Specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial heading/azimuth to be flown after takeoff as follows:
   (a) Locations with Airport Traffic Control Service− Specify these items as necessary.
   (b) Locations without Airport Traffic Control Service, but within a Class E surface area− specify these items if necessary. Obtain/solicit the pilot’s concurrence concerning these items before issuing them in a clearance.
   NOTE−
   Direction of takeoff and turn after takeoff can be obtained/solicited directly from the pilot, or relayed by an FSS, dispatcher, etc., as obtained/solicited from the pilot.
   (c) At all other airports− Do not specify direction of takeoff/turn after takeoff. If necessary to specify an initial heading/azimuth to be flown after takeoff, issue the initial heading/azimuth so as to apply only within controlled airspace.
   2. Where only textually described obstacle departure procedures (ODP) have been published for a location and pilot compliance is necessary to ensure separation, include the procedure as part of the ATC clearance.
   EXAMPLE−
   “Depart via the (airport name) (runway number) departure procedure.”
   NOTE−
   IFR takeoff minimums and departure procedures are prescribed for specific airports/runways and published in a tabular form supplement to the FAA instrument approach procedure chart and appropriate FAA Form 8260. These procedures are identified on instrument approach procedure charts with a symbol:
   3. Compatibility with a procedure issued may be verified by asking the pilot if items obtained/ solicited will allow him/her to comply with local traffic pattern, terrain, or obstruction avoidance.

   PHRASEOLOGY−
   FLY RUNWAY HEADING.
   DEPART (direction or runway).
   TURN LEFT/RIGHT.
   WHEN ENTERING CONTROLLED AIRSPACE (instruction), FLY HEADING (degrees) UNTIL REACHING (altitude, point, or fix) BEFORE PROCEEDING ON COURSE.
   FLY A (degree) BEARING/AZIMUTH FROM/TO (fix) UNTIL (time),
   or
   UNTIL REACHING (fix or altitude),
   and if required,
   BEFORE PROCEEDING ON COURSE.
   EXAMPLE−
   “Verify right turn after departure will allow compliance with local traffic pattern,”or “Verify this clearance will allow compliance with terrain or obstruction avoidance.”
   NOTE−
   If a published IFR departure procedure is not included in an ATC clearance, compliance with such a procedure is the pilot’s prerogative.

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5. 
   

   
   

   Mark Kolber on Jun 05, 2015

   OTOH, the controller’s manual also says (bolding is mine)

   5-8-2. INITIAL HEADING
   a. Before departure, assign the initial heading to be flown if a departing aircraft is to be vectored immediately after takeoff.
   PHRASEOLOGY-
   FLY RUNWAY HEADING.
   TURN LEFT/RIGHT, HEADING (degrees).

   NOTE-
   TERMINAL. A purpose for the heading is not necessary, since pilots operating in a radar environment associate assigned headings with vectors to their planned route of flight.

   Hence my comment about whether tower in fact assigned a specific heading (which in the scenario as written it did not),

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6. 
   

   
   

   John D Collins on Jun 05, 2015

   In the OP clearance, they were not assigned a vector nor told to expect a vector. They were assigned a heading to fly to intercept an airway. Had the clearance been vectors to join the airway and subsequently the tower cleared the aircraft to fly a heading, then it is not necessary to provide the purpose for the heading. In the OP case as stated, they should fly the textual ODP prior to making the turn. If there is some doubt, then 91.123 requires the pilot to clarify the clearance before accepting it.

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7. 
   

   
   

   Mark Kolber on Jun 06, 2015

   The language I quoted from there Controller Handbook makes very clear, and I am unaware of any FAA document that suggests the contrary, that the words “fly heading 030” as part of a takeoff clearance do not have different meanings depending on whether or not the route clearance issued earlier includes the word “vectors.” If that is the case it is be a major safety issue that needs to be addressed because of the note in the Handbook I bolded.

   I agree with you that in the OP’s hypothetical, they were not issued a vector. There was no heading instruction in the takeoff clearance from the tower.

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8. 
   

   
   

   John D Collins on Jun 06, 2015

   Mark, chapter 5 of 7110.65V deals with solely with radar procedures and is not in conflict with the chapter 3 section on departures. Either the aircraft will have been issued a vector SID or clearance for radar vectors to some point or route in the flightplan, so vectors are already expected. Also, the initial heading is provided when there will be vectors “immediately after takeoff”. In that instance, the initial heading does not have to repeat the purpose of the vector.

   This is adequate phraseology:

   FLY RUNWAY HEADING.
   TURN LEFT/RIGHT, HEADING (degrees)

   Instead of adding

   FOR VECTORS TO ASSIGNED ROUTE

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9. 
   

   
   

   Alex Weeks on Jun 06, 2015

   Well, I for one think it’s interesting there is so much confusion and disagreement on such an important issue.

   I fly for a living and not a single pilot I’ve flown with since I encountered this scenario thinks the student should have done anything other than turn right to the heading assigned in the clearance after reaching 400′ AGL. So there’s clearly a disconnect between the way pilots are trained and other parties like controllers or procedure designers are trained.

   For those of you who agree with the sim instructor. What heading do you think the student should have turned to and, maybe most important, when would you teach the student he is required to fly the heading issued in the clearance?

   If this were in uncontrolled airspace I’d tell the student you have to enter controlled airspace on the clearance heading unless the ODP prevents that, but this is not uncontrolled airspace this is busy Class C airport. If the ODP had language like do something before proceeding on course, then I’d tell the student that he has to do what the ODP prescribes before turning to the clearance heading, but this OPD simply defines a non-standard climb gradient and has no do this before that section. So…if the clearance assigned heading is not mandatory after takeoff, when would you teach that the heading in the clearance becomes mandatory and must be flown?

   I believe that answer in this case is a 400′ AGL, but for those of you who believe otherwise, when should the clearance heading be flown?

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10. 
    

    
    

    John D Collins on Jun 06, 2015

    The pilot is always responsible for terrain clearance. When receiving vectors, the controller is also responsible for terrain clearance. The clearance you posed was a heading to intercept an airway which is not a vector. The part 91 pilot is advised to follow the ODP before flying the route. It is the pilot prerogative to do so. The ODP would not exist in the first place if departures on any heading met the 200 feet per NM climb gradient requirements. If there is any question on the meaning of the clearance, it is required that the pilot clarify the clearance prior to accepting it. Certified carriers have less discretion and must fly the ODP based on 91.175 (f)(3) unless:

    “(3) Except as provided in paragraph (f)(4) of this section, no pilot may takeoff under IFR from a civil airport having published obstacle departure procedures (ODPs) under part 97 of this chapter for the takeoff runway to be used, unless the pilot uses such ODPs or an alternative procedure or route assigned by air traffic control.
    (4) Notwithstanding the requirements of paragraph (f)(3) of this section, no pilot may takeoff from an airport under IFR unless:
    (i) For part 121 and part 135 operators, the pilot uses a takeoff obstacle clearance or avoidance procedure that ensures compliance with the applicable airplane performance operating limitations requirements under part 121, subpart I or part 135, subpart I for takeoff at that airport;”

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11. 
    

    
    

    Wes Beard on Jun 06, 2015

    As I previously stated, the sim instructor didn’t have a good scenario to discuss this. Your student followed the ODP but may not have known that is what he was doing. Compounding the issue is that tower didn’t issue a heading to follow after departure and thus the pilot should have at least briefed the ODP.

    If it had been a different ODP with specifc routes to follow you should absolutely fly those routes and upon reaching MSA turn to your clearance heading. Reading the Instrument Procedures Handbook, it states that if the pilot elects to follow the ODP and the routing is substantially different than the clearance, the pilot should notify ATC so they can plan accordingly.

    For me; If I receive a heading in the clearance routing I will look at the ODP and fly it in IMC conditions unless I have an alternate plan. If I receive a heading to fly from tower I will fly that heading after passing 400 FT AGL.

    This agrees with what John posted in 91.175(f)(3).

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12. 
    

    
    

    Mark Kolber on Jun 07, 2015

    >>For me; If I receive a heading in the clearance routing I will look at the ODP and fly it in IMC conditions unless I have an alternate plan. If I receive a heading to fly from tower I will fly that heading after passing 400 FT AGL.

    Yep. That’s what I would expect as well. And I think that is what the blurb I quoted says because, we as pilots don’t necessarily know the difference. The ATC Handbook tells controllers what to do and what to say. But in either case, since it is my life on the line, I will determine whether I need the ODP. If I do, regardless of what Tower says, I will fly it, informing Tower of my intentions so we are on the same page.

    Of course, as you and Russ point out, in the OP’s scenario, there is no tower instruction and the heading in the clearance in fact complies with the ODP.

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    Mark Kolber on Jun 07, 2015

    Actually, Alex, there is less disagreement than appears. The two blurbs John and I quoted do not disagree with each other. The one John quoted tells ATC hiw to issue departure clearances. The one i quoted tells ATC towers to only specify a heading as part of a takeoff clearance when in a radar environment. Neither removes the pilot’s perrogative to fly an ODP or negates the pilot’s pic responsibility to herself and her passengers to check for departure procedures and performance requirements to clear terrain and ask ATC fir what they need.

    It’s ultimately about our responsibility as pic to know our environment and not blindly follow ATC without clarifying clearances or instructions in light of what we need. Consider this different situation. You are in the clouds when Approach, thinking your area is in visual conditions, clears you for a visual approach. Do you simply do your best or to you inform ATC you are in the clouds and request the IAP you want?

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14. 
    

    
    

    Alex Weeks on Jun 08, 2015

    I feel like this question needs a summary post just in case someone finds this on Google a year from now with ODP questions. I was the original poster and the intent of the question was to talk about how instructors teach ODPs. I gave too much info in the setup to the question and we ended up talking about when an ODP should be flown, which is fine. It was a good discussion.

    Some of the information was presented by very knowledgable people but it’s a little esoteric and the propeller head side of flying. Discussion about when a heading is a vector and when it’s not is really not stuff the average IFR pilot needs to know.

    If you’re reading this to try to clarify for yourself when you should fly the ODP and when you shouldn’t the answer is that ODPs are intended for pilot awareness and use in the absence of ATC radar vectors or a SID assignment. So, if you’re at a non-towered airport in uncontrolled airspace and you get the “enter controlled airspace on heading XXX” clearance then you should fly the ODP. However, if you’re already talking to ATC and they assign you a heading, you fly the heading they assign and disregard the ODP. ATC instructions always take precedence over the ODP (Instrument Procedures Handbook pg. 1-38). There is not distinction between a heading issued by the tower controller or a heading issued in a clearance. An instruction is an instruction and it overrides the ODP.

    Some of the respondents to my question said they would fly the ODP even if they had received a heading to fly from ATC. That’s their prerogative, but if you do it that way in controlled airspace while talking to a controller, make sure you let them know your intentions. The right time to do that is when you copy your clearance. Essentially, what you are doing is declining the clearance they issued and asking for a clearance that includes the published ODP. If you do this, recognize that you might be throwing a wrench in their usual departure procedures and expect delays if they have to make a hole for you in arriving or departing traffic flow. ODPs are developed for terrain and obstacle clearance, not traffic flow, so in some places flying the ODP can put you in an inconvenient position from ATC’s perspective.

    ATC has lots of tricks up their sleeves we as pilots are not privy to. Minimum Vectoring Altitudes (MVA) are not published, Diverse Vector Areas (DVA) are not published, and LOAs between controlling facilities are not published in any way we can effectively use, yet all have a hand in determining where and when you can be vectored.

    ATC needs these tools to efficiently move traffic. ODP requirements are more restrictive than guidelines for vectoring and ODPs include obstacles up to 46 miles away in some places. Furthermore, ODP procedures assume aircraft are climbing directly toward and over the obstacle in question which is not always appropriate. Obviously, if ATC intends to turn you 20 miles before the obstacle in question then the imaginary ODP plane between the runway and the obstacles 20-miles away is moot. It used to be even worse when ODPs had to take into consideration obstacles that were 100 miles away.

    In response to this problem ATC developed ways to vector aircraft below these minimum altitudes. The modern term for this is a Diverse Vector Area (DVA). These are laterally and vertically defined areas that usually start at the departure end of the runway and allow ATC to vector aircraft immediately after departure. The locations of DVAs are not published for pilots. You cannot look at a chart to determine if you are in a DVA, so you have to trust that if ATC issues you a heading they have the authorization to do so. Of course no one is suggesting that you let ATC fly you into the side of a mountain, but simply looking at the ODP and noting that the ODP wouldn’t have you turning so early is insufficient. If ATC is vectoring you, rest assured that’s okay. That statement will make some people uncomfortable, but it’s a fact of flying in the modern National Airspace System.

    So, to summarize, ATC can vector you immediately after takeoff. I don’t know how to reconcile that with the info John Collins published, but it’s the way it is. If you are assigned a heading (or other ATC instruction) it takes precedence over the ODP. If you want to fly the ODP but your clearance is to do something else you cannot unilaterally just decide to fly the ODP, rather you need to inform ATC of your intentions and comply with whatever they tell you.

    But, don’t take my word for it. All of this is published in the Instrument Procedures Handbook section on departure procedures. It’s a good read and I’ll guarantee that almost everyone will learn something they didn’t already know.

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    John D Collins on Jun 09, 2015

    There are many items that a pilot should take into consideration when departing an airport under IMC. They include determining if an ODP is required or if alternative means are available to depart. For example, some airport will list takeoff minimums that permit avoidance of obstacles visually or requiring a higher than standard climb rate to a specified altitude. If the tower issues a heading off of the runway at an airport where radar services are available and an ODP are specified, the initial heading, although not a vector is assumed to be for the purposes of being vectored. If there isn’t a DVA specified for the airport, then the vectors are expected to require no more than a 200 feet/NM climb rate and the vectors will avoid any obstacles or terrain. If there is a DVA established at an airport, it is indicated in the TPP section for DP. A DVA often will require a non standard climb gradient and the pilot must understand what is required before accepting vector departures from such an airport. An example is KSJC RWY 30L/R has both an ODP and a DVA. The ODP requires 200 feet/NM. The DVA requires 490 feet per NM to 5600 feet. If you accept a vector off of KSJC, you are indicating you can meet the climb gradient restriction. If you can’t accept vectors, you need to make that clear to ATC prior to departure indicate that you require flying the ODP.

    In the case of the OP clearance “cleared to XXX via heading 030 to join V131 then as filed, climb and maintain….”, this is a non radar route to be navigated by the pilot. I discussed this with the FAA Terminal specialist that participates in the ATPAC meetings and he agrees that this route is non radar and as stated, it is totally within the pilot’s discretion to fly the DP before joining the non radar route. The fact that the route is conflated with an initial heading to join the airway does not make it a vector and the pilot assumes complete responsibility with this clearance for terrain and obstacle avoidance.

    If there is any possibility of confusion regarding the meaning of a clearance, 91.123 requires the pilot to obtain clarification. So anytime the situation is ambiguous, you need to clear it up with ATC. Regardless, don’t accept any clearance without understanding the performance requirements for a given departure and this includes vectors.

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